Two Apartment Fires, NYC Dec 16 and, NYC, 11 AM Jan 9 5

[FacEngrPE]

News 4 New York City December 17, 2021 10:05 pm
FDNY: Deadly Apartment Fire Caused by E-Bike Batteries
Event was DEC 16 2021

The cause of Thursday’s apartment building fire has been linked to lithium batteries from an electric bike. NBC New York’s Jonathan Dienst reports.

East 181st, (Bronx) NYC. 11 AM Jan 9, The toll 19 dead, 60 injured. Initial reports said the fire was on the third floor of the 19-story building. The 120-unit building in the Twin Parks North West complex was built in 1973. A sprinkler system is not installed.

Investigators are trying to determine why safety doors failed to close in a New York City high-rise when a deadly fire broke out.

If the LiIon battery in bicycles theory holds up in the investigation, now we have a serious contender with LiIon car battery fires, with a higher likelyhood of storage in living spaces.

Moon161 is correct these two events are separate but as both contain situations which engineering can be improved, I am going to leave this thread up to see what develops.

 

[dik]

It was an interesting 'take'... When this can happen, there's something wrong. One thing is 'too little' value on human life.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[bones206]

Yea, that's definitely more of a sociological question. I can sort of see an analogy to the public utility debate: the idea that publicly-owned utilities would invest more profits back into the infrastructure rather than siphon them off in the form of exorbitant compensation for executives. I see the logic behind the theory, but the practical implementation is a whole other story. As illustrated by the Miami condo collapse, asking an ever-changing band of owner-volunteers to manage a large facility is challenging in the best of times.

I just come back to the idea that engineers could come up with an improved fire door widget to take the human element out of the equation. Then make the building codes adopt the new widget as a minimum standard to force the landlords to implement them. It's capitalism - nobody is gonna spend one more dollar than they are forced to.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Does anybody really think a bunch of section 8 tenants would be able to manage and maintain and high-rise apartment building?

I know, right? 'cause Section 8 automatically means the person is a moron with no skills. Thank God we have all of those intelligent and useful non-Section 8 folk to guide them.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Spartan5]

It's not a take, it's an attempt at politicization.

Multibillion dollar slumlords maintaining buildings in such a condition that residents have to rely on boiling pots of water, ovens, and space heaters to stay warm is not a take or politicization. It’s just what it is.

 

[dik]

Sorry tug... it's an observation only.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

A high rise apartment building is a lot like a ship except the apartment building is packed full of flammable furnishings and other materials. Everybody on the ship is required to have standard competencies. Everybody on the ship is required to participate in regular fire and evacuation drills.

Perhaps we should be utilizing this tragic event to push for education for highrise tenants and not to push a communist agenda.

 

[dik]

Life safety is not political... sorry tug.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Spartan5]

A high rise apartment building is a lot like a ship

Great! Let’s play out the analogy. A multibillion dollar corporation owns a fleet of unseaworthy vessels (the poorly maintained or inadequate buildings). The crew (the residents) are required to have competencies and participate in drills you say. On a ship, who is responsible to see that that happens? The Captain you say? Who hires the Captain?

Surely the owner and Captain work diligently to provide the crew training materials. Do you happen to have a link to them? How about the ship’s log? All of this stuff should be readily available.

‘Course there’s never been a case of an owner hazarding a vessel, skimping on maintenance, or pressuring a captain to skirt regulations, thereby sending a competent well trained crew to Davy Jones’ Locker either. Nope. I can’t think of that ever happening.

Great example [flush]

 

[TugboatEng]

Are you saying that it's a bad idea to have a fire drill for residents of a high rise apartment building? Maybe teach the residents where the fire doors are in the building? Explain that in the event of a fire the doors should be closed and if one is found open to close it?

There are also behaviors that might not be known to the general public to escape a burning building. One example is to make your way out while laying on your stomach and to always have a hand or foot touching a wall. It's much cooler on the floor and touching the wall prevents disorientation.

Also, don't use the fire hose to spray water in an occupied space. And CO2 extinguishers can't put out class A fires once they get going (no cooling effect).

Touch the door knob before opening the door. If it's hot don't open.

These are examples of things the general public should know but likely doesn't.

Spartan, fires happen on ships all of the time. It's exceedingly rare for a fire to result in mass casualties on a ship. The fires often burn through the ships due to poorly maintained or inadequate control systems. However, the crew is usually able to escape.

Education is cheap and doesn't fall in to disrepair as quickly.

 

[Spartan5]

Are you saying that it's a bad idea to have a fire drill for residents of a high rise apartment building? Maybe teach the residents where the fire doors are in the building? Explain that in the event of a fire the doors should be closed and if one is found open to close it?

Nope. I’m saying that implementation of those practices are the responsibility of the owner and/or owner’s agent (Captain AKA The Super).

But we’ve already established the owner isn’t even interested in investing resources in basic essentials. Like adequate heating.

 

[dik]

Why do common sense and systemic problems have to be political, of late? When they are not processed, the problem is systemic, but a problem, nonetheless.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

A big question is, would people want to live in highrise buildings if they had to do regular drills for safety?

I think the answer to that would be a resounding no! So, instead of looking for real solutions, let's push Marxism instead.

I'm sorry, that article you linked was pure insanity. They even call themselves "activist journalists".

 

[dik]

Sorry Tug... I just thought it was an interesting take, and it really has nothing to do with politics or Marxism. Think of it as having to take a driving test, no Marxism, either, and much being safer. If they have to have semi-annual fire drills, not too bad an idea if it saves lives. People have to learn that they have to be inconvienienced sometimes.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[spsalso]

So the building owner has fire drills.

Only a fraction of the residents show up to participate.

The owner has another, and even fewer show up to participate.

At some point, no one shows up to participate. The owner keeps records of this, and ceases having fire drills, since it's been recorded that no one shows up.


That's a wrap, folks!


Perhaps owner should bring pizzas and call it "tenant appreciation day". You get your pizza if you participate. And you have to sit and eat as a group and discuss the fire drill. The owner must be there.

Actually kinda sounds like fun!



spsalso

 

[Spartan5]

A big question is, would people want to live in highrise buildings if they had to do regular drills for safety?

I mean, they lived there without adequate heat. Right?

Were there even optional drills? Instructions? Regular announcements? Informative videos in multiple languages? Educational materials? Anything?

What did the multibillion dollar slumlords even attempt to provide? Certainly not adequate heat.

But keeping beating that straw man you’re building. Or maybe you agree that it is the owner’s responsibility to provide those things? Which is it?

 

[TugboatEng]

This is one of the few times that I think legislation is an answer. If the building has fire doors, elevators, and/or dedicated fire escapes, it should be law that the occupants of the building get some level of familiarization of these systems in an emergency. One person closing a door could have saved many lives. Yes, an engineer can design a better door but how do we grandfather that in to older buildings? How do we implement expensive rules without stifling new construction?

As for the people that don't attend? Raise their rent until they do. That's no different than increasing health insurance premiums on the unvaxxed.

I took a 4 day firefighting course that consisted of 2 days of classroom, 1 day of search and rescue, and 1 day of live burn. That course was fantastically informative. There is so much simple material the general public doesn't know about surviving fire.

Otherwise, are you saying section 8 tenants are too dumb to learn some basic life safety skills? It's sad when people grow up in bad neighborhoods, go to bad schools, and live in bad housing and there is zero interest to teach them anything life skills related. Just let them continue in the same pattern that continues to fail them but with a little more protection offered from their overlords.

 

[SwinnyGG]

One person closing a door could have saved many lives.

Self-closing doors exist in the first place because educating people to keep doors shut does not work.

This was a tragedy, but 'tell everyone they have to shut their door all the time' is not a real solution.

 

[TugboatEng]

Gosh darn, put your politics aside for a second. A self closing design is ideal but educating the residents to close the damned door makes it more reliable.

And, if we transfer the ownership to the residents as dik's article described do you think they would not require similar education or would they be able to protect themselves without the burden of capitalism over their heads?

Y'all picked a weird hill to stand on.

Swinny, this isn't targeted at you but a few other users here are being oddly hostile and I may be riled up.

 

[bones206]

Education is always beneficial but I don’t think that it’s a realistic expectation for hundreds of millions of people to all become competent in fire safety through training and education.

Human factors engineering means meeting people where they are at- in reality - not in an idealized version of reality. One of the actual realities of these tenant’s lives was constant fire alarms occurring to the point they were conditioned not to act when they heard one. That has to be considered a systemic failure because nobody should be subject to a reality that conditions them to ignore fire alarms.

 

[dik]

I think we should drop this part of the thread.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik