Two Apartment Fires, NYC Dec 16 and, NYC, 11 AM Jan 9 5

[FacEngrPE]

News 4 New York City December 17, 2021 10:05 pm
FDNY: Deadly Apartment Fire Caused by E-Bike Batteries
Event was DEC 16 2021

The cause of Thursday’s apartment building fire has been linked to lithium batteries from an electric bike. NBC New York’s Jonathan Dienst reports.

East 181st, (Bronx) NYC. 11 AM Jan 9, The toll 19 dead, 60 injured. Initial reports said the fire was on the third floor of the 19-story building. The 120-unit building in the Twin Parks North West complex was built in 1973. A sprinkler system is not installed.

Investigators are trying to determine why safety doors failed to close in a New York City high-rise when a deadly fire broke out.

If the LiIon battery in bicycles theory holds up in the investigation, now we have a serious contender with LiIon car battery fires, with a higher likelyhood of storage in living spaces.

Moon161 is correct these two events are separate but as both contain situations which engineering can be improved, I am going to leave this thread up to see what develops.

 

[bones206]

Sorry Dik. I’m not trying to agitate the discussion. I just think an improved engineered solution is possible. But before you can solve a problem you must start with a sober assessment of the realities of the problem. I’m not trying to diminish the importance of individual responsibility in educating oneself to the dangers around you, that Tugboat was emphasizing. But I’m not sure how that would help anyone who is 19 stories up when the fire door doesn’t close in a fire. I think as engineers we could do something to protect people more reliably.

 

[dik]

concur, but someone thinks this is an affront to freedom and is political. Nothing to be sorry for.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[moon161]

Odd, I've had about a dozen employers over the last 20 years and eliminating headcounts <10 and gigs <1 year, most of them had an annual fire drill that nobody beefed about, usually a sunny day in october with everybody standing in the parking lot or the building atrium. Similarly, nobody seems to mind 20 minutes a month for safety training, knowing where the AED's and fire extinguishers are. Nobody has vocally hated on the man or the mob to me about this enforced exercise in self and collective preservation.

Edit, and with this, I find a non-technical point of agreement with tugboat, something unusual. I've worked in giant bank-eating banks and militantly unionized shops, nobody seems to mind learning the way out in a fire, or that you give the yellow fire extinguisher on the burning titanium before you run away. Whether it's to reduce insurance rates or build the worker's paradise, it still makes sense.

 

[bones206]

What if you had an unannounced fire drill every day? After how long would it have the opposite effect and desensitize people? That’s the reality of what people were living with in this tower. At least that’s what’s been reported in the media.

 

[dik]

The last company I worked for had one or two unannounced drills a year, complete with a muster point. It was a regular office space... not industrial, or whatever. You saved your work and 'logged off' (generally didn't), and took off.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[moon161]

Yes, I've been the angry guy in a disfunctional system, and about disfunctional systems. In both cases it just hurt too much and changed too little. Lacking the charisma of el Che, I adapt.

I do think there's a big political aspect to this, politics is just human organization, how and why and the related differences, conflicts and resolutions. That goes to how well or how poorly facilities are maintained, prevalence and conditions of poverty, and so on.

 

[dik]

Drop the politics...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Spartan5]

Signage, pamphlets, videos, meetings, announcements, functional self-closing doors, adequate heat, and regular drills all would contribute to better outcomes than the one that resulted from the lack of those things.

 

[moon161]

I've stayed away from advocating an ideal form which is I think the basis of most political arguments, and think that fire burns everyone regardless of what their preferred form of organization is.

However I think this question is tied to how and whether or not people organize functionally and effectively, aka politics. In the end the occupants are not rivets that will march out of the bowl when you turn the agitator on, they are both much better and much worse, depending. edit- and they all should be safe.

 

[dik]

It can be organised by the building superintendant, with people signing in after they left the building. A form letter can be delivered to those not in attendance. This may have an impact on insurance and/or insurance claims. Same with open doors... tenants can close them, or advise the superintendant that they are open. No rocket science here, folks.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[cranky108]

This may be a stupid observation, but, the building likely would not be so cold if the outside fire doors were kept closed.
I don't know which door were left open, but I have seen this happen in dorms years ago.

The office building that I work in required a badge in, to the security knows who is in and who is out, so at fire drills they can account for everyone. This likely would not work in an apartment complex.

But from the first account there likely was no security, so this would not fall under a guard to check.

Maybe the best solution is one of each type of doors. The outside door being a self closing door, with an inner door that is normal open, and closes for a fire, or power failure.
This would not solve the problem with the building being cold, but if it was a back door, the addition of an air door, or heavy plastic door (the drape type, with open pleats, so someone can walk through.
Use cameras to photo people damaging equipment (not security).

 

[SwinnyGG]

Not rocket science perhaps... but you're talking about marshalling and training hundreds of people.

When do you do a fire drill in this building which ensures that everyone is home?

If you pin a flyer to every door in the building, how many of them are going to get thoroughly read and understood as opposed to thrown directly in the garbage?

After people are 'trained', how many of them are going to diligently make sure their front door is closed 24 hours a day for years on end?

Is the guy who was possibly already blocking open the door marked 'emergency exit' going to stop blocking the door open when he brings home groceries or laundry?

'Just teach them a little fire safety and everything is solved' is an absolute pipe dream.

 

[Spartan5]

'Just teach them a little fire safety and everything is solved' is an absolute pipe dream.

It’s also a straw man. I don’t see anyone saying that.

We are talking more along the lines of ‘just teach them any fire safety and some hazards may be mitigated.’

As for doors, there are ways to tell when doors are open, aren’t there? Passive and active. Even if just a daily inspection by the superintendent who notes any issues and works to remedy them.

 

[TugboatEng]

Tie the drill to their rent. No attendance = more rent.

 

[SwinnyGG]

This is a section 8 building. Any 'more rent' would be paid by the government, not by the tenant.

Adding door monitoring to a high rise apartment building with no in-place door security system is a multi-million dollar endeavor which involves renovating the entire building.

'Daily inspection by the superintendent' of every single door in the building? Good luck with that.

I don't think y'all are considering this problem in a way that is realistic.

 

[bones206]

I think the facts of what happened are being warped or swept aside. From the reporting that I've read:

1) The doors were not left open. They failed to close behind the first group of people fleeing the fire.

2) The units were not freezing because of fire doors left open. (See #1 above). They were freezing because of chronically malfunctioning or nonfunctioning heating systems. The unit that the fire started in had a space heater going in three different rooms.

3) Subsequent investigation after the fire found other doors in the building that did not self close. So it wasn't an isolated case of one door malfunctioning.

 

[moon161]

Yeah, thats sad about the doors, and would stick out on a fmea as a potentially critical failure. Training would be one mitigator, assuming it could be closed and it wasnt jammed open.

Me pointing out that a crate jamming a door closer, or an overfilled rag bucket to the shop supervisor, or checking my area for incapacitated people when the fire alarm goes off is prosaic but potentially life saving. I like to think I would pull the wedge stopping a fire door as I went by, but its not rocket surgery. If one in ten in a safety meeting gets it, its useful.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I like to think I would pull the wedge stopping a fire door as I went by, but its not rocket surgery.

I would be impressed if you could accurately identify the fire doors in your building without looking at a drawing first.

Most people, including most engineers, aren't aware that such a thing as internal fire or fire/smoke barrier exists.

 

[bones206]

Swinny - what's your take on intumescent expanding door seals? I basically just googled "smoke door expanding seal" and saw these:

https://content.assaabloyusa.com/doc/AADSS1051285&.pdf

Seems like it could be another layer of protection to install at the entry doors of all units in a highrise. Are these commonly used or more for specialty applications?

 

[dik]

Generally not too difficult. Doors exiting the building and those leading to stair shafts, for the most part. Doors for mechanical and electrical rooms, and doors entering a parkade.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik