Women in Engineering II 54

[lacajun]

Since the first post on this is closed, I decided to begin a new post.

This is a dated but interesting report that I'm working my way through. As I read through it, I see improvements that can be made to benefit women as well as men.

Women in Engineering: An Untapped Resource

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[JohnRBaker]

I'm not aware of anyone trying to give new meaning to the word "Patriotism". However, it's the word "Nationalism" which is problematic. That word has a long history of being used by isolationists, national socialists, racists, etc during some of the darkest days of our democracy and its recent reintroduction into the political debate does not bode well for the future of the nation. Trust me, there's only ONE person who's trying to change the meaning of the word "Nationalism" and he's NOT doing it for the benefit of our country, but as a nod and a wink to groups who until recently knew better then to show themselves but who are now being emboldened, the results of which we all witnessed over the last 10 days, starting with a guy in Kentucky who decided to look for black people to kill at a Kroger store because he couldn't get into a predominantly black church, which appears to have been his original target, then to a 'mass bomber' and finally to a anti-Semite who kills 11 people while they were in prayer, all because he was convinced that Jews were helping to bring 'invaders' into our country that were going to kill "his people", which we can only imagine what he meant by that.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[hokie66]

"Trust me", you are blaming the wrong person.

 

[CWB1]

And how did they get their better qualifications? Was it not through the status quo that favors whiter and more affluent children?

Funny, you're supposedly beating the drum against systemic racism while openly supporting systemic racism. A poor white kid should be treated no differently than a poor black kid when it comes to being awarded govt grants/scholarships/aid/etc plain and simple. The question of who gets aid should be the one who has done the best in school previously. As it stands now, we have many C-D students with free rides while A students struggle or cant afford to attend.

However, it's the word "Nationalism" which is problematic.

"Democrat" has the same problem, yet its rare that folks discuss that problem despite being associated with a political party that's been openly supported and staffed by white supremacy groups/members for more than a century now.

Contrary to the extreme left's baloney, Bannon actually has been an ardent patriot in the same way the POTUS has been. He preaches supporting our allies overseas but only from a strong "America first" standpoint. There's nothing racist about that, basic first aid teaches that before you can care for others you must care for yourself....put on your own oxygen mask before helping others....etc. The only folks he's encouraging to show themselves and act are other patriots who have quietly stood by and watched our jobs and security disappear overseas while our rights disappear at home. Its nationalism as properly defined, not nationalism as twisted by some socialist politician or "journalist." I'd also offer that nationalism is a job requirement of every elected and appointed official which Bannon was.

 

[IRstuff]

"Funny, you're supposedly beating the drum against systemic racism while openly supporting systemic racism."

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males, but the evidence is to the contrary; white males of any background still get the better jobs and better pay. White females do better than non-white females. To say that we should ignore that fact is to permanently bake in the systemic racism that already exists.

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[nonplussed]

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males, but the evidence is to the contrary; white males of any background still get the better jobs and better pay

IRstuff, the obvious logical inconsistency in your argument is that Asians earn and have always earned considerably more than whites. Are you also saying that there is systemic racism against non-Asians? And if we are now excluding certain races from our arguments for the purpose of making an assertion, can we also say that the status quo is stacked against Blacks in favour of Hispanics?

 

[IRstuff]

And your argument is that blacks and Hispanics make less because they choose to, as do women, because if they are not being discriminated against, then the only explanation is that they want it so?

Or, if we're going there, they make less because they're not capable of earning more?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[hokie66]

IRstuff,
I think it is obviously the latter. The people, whatever the colour, who are less capable, earn less.

 

[epoisses_]

Seen from Europe (so, from Venus) this kind of graphs looks like it's from another dimension.
I know Golden retriever is a race, I did not know the other ones.
I did not know Apu makes more than the rest of us. He is Asian, right? India is in Asia last time I checked. But Indians come in all colors.
(troll mode off)
Seriously this kind of data may be eloquent but only if filtered for one category of jobs.

Question (ref. title of the thread), who is the "household head"?

 

[Latexman]

We recently lost a co-worker who was an extremely talented Engineer.

The American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE), through its Philadelphia chapter has established a scholarship in honor of Debbie Kennoy who passed away on September 29, 2018. Debbie had represented Arkema Inc. at ASHRAE for over 20 years and was highly respected for her knowledge and willingness to help other members. The scholarship is going to be earmarked to support women in engineering from the Philadelphia area, a great tribute to Debbie. More information can be found here.

Founded in 1894, ASHRAE is a global society that works to advance human well-being through sustainable technology. They focus on building systems, energy efficiency, indoor air quality, refrigeration and sustainability within the industry.


Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

 

[IRstuff]

"I think it is obviously the latter. The people, whatever the colour, who are less capable, earn less."

So, there it is, the entirety of the blacks and Hispanics in the US are less capable than the whites and Asians, since the medians are lower? By extension, since the same argument could be applied to women, they must likewise be less capable.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[nonplussed]

And your argument is that blacks and Hispanics make less because they choose to, as do women, because if they are not being discriminated against, then the only explanation is that they want it so?

No, my point is that there are many reasons why there would be disparities in income between races or sex. But it seems to be in vogue at the moment that the 'evil white man' is the one and only reason why there are disparities. Focusing so heavily and dogmatically on this one theory, which has so many logical contradictions, makes everyone blinded from finding the actual reasons and alleviating the problem.

For example, the proportion of single parent families and its correspondence to racial disparities in income lines up far better than the 'evil white man' theory (

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/da...t=1#1/any/false/870/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431).

It is a more consistent indication of whether a family will be in poverty and it also explains why Asians would earn more than whites. Having a stable and solid family foundation with stable mother and father role models will increase a child's chance to have a stable education and career. Being a single parent raising a child by yourself will dramatically increase your chance of falling into poverty no matter what race you are, and this has multi-generational effects. But this is just one of many contributing reasons why there would be disparities, and the solution to this is far more complicated than blaming the 40 year old white man doing his 9 till 5 office job.

 

[RickyTickyTavi]

Do you think single parent families could be in fact propagated by disproportionate incarceration of minorities for crimes committed at similar rates among the majority? - Could those affects be multi-generational?

 

[lacajun]

beej67, it did, indeed, happen here. One instance was in Boulder. I thought starting my own business would garner me a bit more respect, as if my work record, education, and licensure wouldn't, but it didn't. What I've heard as a woman business owner has been as interesting as being a direct employee.

Everywhere I have worked has been difficult because of some men. Not all but some. They were relentless enough to make life miserable. They really made me feel unwelcome. In some cases, I felt as though I wasn't welcome in the human species.

I realize not all women endure what I have but quite a number of us do. Again, I don't have percentages on it but I know I am far from alone. I am glad some women don't have that to contend with at work. I suspect, for me, a lot of my troubles have been because I am single. A lot of men will not put married women through hardships because they don't want to have an angry husband on their backs. Sad to say, it makes a difference.

I've never been cool or popular so I don't understand why the hardships unless they perceive me as a threat. That is what one female quasi-manager told me years ago, while I endured a severe test, with a gang of five men. Yes, you read it right, a gang of five men.

I'm talking to other women in STEM. They've experienced what I have.

Again, I love men but some really do a grave disservice to your gender.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[lacajun]

Irstuff, I’m close and some I’ve already written off. There are only so many hours in the day. I was diagnosed with sibo and had more bad days. I can’t subject people to my crankiness on those days. But, I’m feeling much better and also working diligently to catch up. Now that I feel better I can see how very ill I was.

Greenone, I’m not too impressed with any personality profiling because moods shift so much and so many variables influence mood in all of us.

Thank you for helping to make things a bit easier for the next woman. We all have that responsibility to the younger people.

I never got upset about how I was addressed. What bothered me was the treatment because it was over the top. I don’t think most men would have stood for it either. And, to have been brushed off as you were was not even common courtesy let alone professional courtesy. Integrity and leadership don't act in ways that don't acknowledge someone's humanity.

*********************************************************************

After doing a lot of research, listening to people who have done the work of government or whatever, digging into history, digging into definitions, reading government processes, etc., I have a much different understanding of life than I did previously. Even old dogs can learn new tricks; I am proof.

I realize no one in this forum knows me, which adds to a lot of supposition. Rest assured I do not arise daily looking for offenses, ill treatment, gloom, doom, etc. That’s a terrible way to live life and there are more important aspects of life to chase and expect. I was always one to have a good time.

I take each person as they present themselves to me. I work diligently to not let others’ negative biases influence my own experiences with the objects of their ire. I do that personally as well as professionally. I’ve told more than one person that I don’t care to hear the negative because I want to form my own opinions. I’ve told more than one person that I don’t see the negative traits in others that they see.

Some acquaintances and friends have called me snowflake implying weakness. I assure you I am far from weak. I don’t expect or seek confrontation but I will certainly end one, after more than one fair warning has been given. That always surprises the people who are belligerent and start fights. Enforcement of boundaries is always a surprise to them because they’re so used to obliterating or ignoring the boundaries of others.

One white, male manager told me that I didn’t need to get paid as much as the male engineers because I was a woman. I wasn’t the bread winner supporting a wife and kids. A lot of them had working wives, as did the white, male manager that imparted his reasoning to me. So much for free market capitalism.

All of us have areas that need reflection and correction. I’ve not set myself up as the oracle of anything. Over the last several years and especially the last two years, I have come to realize that platitudes are just that, platitudes. People utter them as though they are oracles, with their full humanity on display.


Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[IRstuff]

"But it seems to be in vogue at the moment that the 'evil white man' is the one and only reason why there are disparities. Focusing so heavily and dogmatically on this one theory, which has so many logical contradictions, makes everyone blinded from finding the actual reasons and alleviating the problem."

Well, perhaps for some, but the bottom line is Occam's Razor, white men are at the top of the pyramid, and the simplest explanation is that they clawed their way to the top and whether consciously or not, they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. The history of the US is chock full of examples of this. To deny this is to simply ignore history and the fact that people in power, of any stripe, tend to want to stay there. I think that this attack on vogueness is simply a realization that those that are out of power actually had figured it out and are now vocalizing it more and louder than ever before.

This argument is eerily similar to the arguments against climate change, it's not the evil humans, it's the cows, the volcanoes, or the solar constant is changing but we simply can't detect it or the data is fudged.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[hokie66]

Just wondering, IRstuff, if you are willing to give some credit where it is due.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/11/republicans-do-right-by-black-americans/

 

[CWB1]

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males...

No, you're quite literally defending racism as quid-pro-quo. I'm sorry, but there is no defense or excuse for racism, period. Supremacists defend it in much the same manner - "helping" others by holding back those "bad" others. Take two kids of different races that are both from broken homes with few financial means. They BOTH deserve an EQUAL opportunity to be judged on THEIR merits with NO consideration of race, religion, or anything beyond their scholastic achievements. Anything less than that is simply racist.

 

[IRstuff]

"They BOTH deserve an EQUAL opportunity"

No disagreement, but they haven't had equal opportunity, ever, and certainly, they don't have it now; every test of racial and gender bias has shown that there are large disparities in opportunity, even when tested with resumes where only the name is changed.

The percentage of the population that agrees with white supremacy is at least 8%, possibly higher, given that 31% believe in that "white European heritage" needs to be protected.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[prc]

I think both in India and China, there are more women in engineering compared to other countries and they seldom meet with any discrimination-may be because promotions are on the basis of seniority, most of the time. I studied Engineering more than 50 years back and our batch had only couple of young women as students. But when I went to my college for a talk after 12 years of graduation, 30 % of the hall was packed with women. Today Iam told women % is more than men in most of the engineering colleges. Recently I found managers of steel fabrication shops ( part of transformer factories) of two factories -one in India, my earlier company!) and in China are women engineers. Operation Director of largest transmission Company (may be one of the largest in the world) of India is a lady. Rocket division of Indian Space agency is headed by a lady engineer.( ex my college)

 

[IRstuff]

In most of my experience with women program managers, they rarely been given their due respect. They've often been treated with derision, particularly from older men.

Aside from pure biases, there are simple "comfort" factors that will tend to select for commonality with the person making the decision. Men like to be working with other men, because of the "hey, didja catch the game last night?" are easy conversation starters with common experiences/culture. So, even if there are zero racist/sexist biases, people are simply less comfortable with strangers with strange cultures and non-shared experiences. If we were to magically make everyone un-racist, there would be little change in the status quo, because of the comfort factors.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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