Work-Life Balance and Pay 42

[DirtSmuggler]

Hello
I've become a salary (field) employee now. Finding myself doing a lot of overtime that I'm not getting paid for. How do I address this with management? Find myself taking work home and working for additional 2-3 hours because EVERYTHING is "urgent" and "asap". I'm not getting compensated for the additional time, even though I'm billing the client for the time. What do I do?

 

[GregLocock]

I signed a contract with my employer. In it I agreed to donate a certain number of hours per week, from my unknown but limited remaining time on earth, working on stuff they want me to do, in return for a certain amount of money, from their limited, but easily calculable pile of gold coins. That is in black and white. Now, I am quite happy to work a lot of extra hours for months at a time to get around a manpower planning issue that they have caused, but I expect to reclaim that time.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[geotechguy1]

Consider moving to Canada / Australia / New Zealand. In the later two the minimum is 4 weeks annual leave and outside of mining and major projects kiwi's and aussie engineers seem to perpetually be able to disappear to go surfing or rock climbing or whatever at 3pm on friday

 

[NorthCivil]

My mind was blown moving to NZ from north america. They enjoy life-work balance. Not work-life, in NZ life comes before work well and truly. Not at every office of course, but this in general rings true.

If employers in north america treated their staff the way the average run of the mill NZ company treats their staff, they would experience no turnover.

 

[geotechguy1]

Yeah mate, I live in New Zealand now and it's been such a nice change. 4 weeks holidays, usually easy to buy additional annual leave, good sick leave policies (and no questioning it unless you're really taking the piss).

 

[CWB1]

LPS for phamENG for a good explanation of the US' standard. IME most white-collar management stateside are the aforementioned salaried-exempt (from OT pay), at-will employees. The reason for that is simple - we do NOT want our pay limited by arbitrary measures. Top paying employers all require proof of your work ethic so graduating early, working long/difficult hours, willingness to travel, etc are all big levers to pull in salary negotiation. 40/week and/or paid OT both come with mediocre pay, so hopefully the rest of the employment package is worthwhile to those considering that. Also, an interesting irony worth noting is that the folks decrying "unpaid" OT usually also decry executives for their high incomes and blame their own lack of success on others.

Call me odd, but I dont understand the obsession with 40/week. I spend an hour in the gym/pool/running daily, cook and/or enjoy two formal meals with family, spend 4-5 hours nightly in my shop, and can still work 10/day without feeling busy. How much free time does one need? Usually when I hear gripes about being overworked, its from folks who are pretty lethargic and dont have much for hobbies beyond television.

FYI for folks overseas, four weeks paid vacation is pretty standard stateside for engineers who have been in industry more than a minute, and 6-8 arent uncommon. If someone wants additional time off then a simple request for unpaid leave is usually quick and easy. Sick days and appointments are usually just a quick call or email to the boss, nothing formally documented. If I am in the state, I usually attend my wife's appointments. I haven't lived in Oz, but after living on four continents I honestly find both the pay and benefits stateside far better than anything overseas.

 

[Ron]

Well said phamENGr!

 

[geotechguy1]

CWB1, this sounds like classic American-style thinking where you all think you're a decade of 60 hour weeks away from a job in the C-suite.

Most engineers aren't going to make it past middle management type roles, assuming they make it that far, and the ones that make it past that aren't going to have their ability to negotiate salary limited by normal engineers not being salaried-exempt / only working 40 hr weeks.

 

[LittleInch]

I read this and this sketch came to mind from you guys...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYtYBI6eZ3E

If you don't want the subtitles it's called the "Four Yorkshiremen sketch" search it on YT.

To be fair phameng does say that the younger generation (I'm pushing 60) are not as prepared to accept things the way it was 20,30 or 40 years ago. And I for one don't blame them. There are now many opportunities for people in various IT and online roles where this sort of thing is not so common.

The requirement for a written contract of employment is so long written into legislation in the UK and other European and non US countries that I was surprised by this "at will" expression and for the way you seem to think it's a good thing? I really don't see how having a contract would limit any of the things you suggest. You can still try and "catch the eye" of the overpaid execs by doing unpaid O/T, be willing to sacrifice evenings and weekends, travel and move all over the place. It just allows you some level of comfort that they can't automatically EXPECT you to do that. The only people, IMHO, who are seeing their pay reduced due to these practices are those that don't work them and somehow have ended up the "C" suite.

We've gone off track a bit here, but maybe a bit of a response from the OP?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[LittleInch]

Landen,

You seem to like one line answers - are you sure you haven't actually turned into a computer?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[TheTick]

I could swear I've seen a near-identical post somewhere before. Old algorithm?

 

[LittleInch]

HAL 9000....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[CWB1]

CWB1, this sounds like classic American-style thinking where you all think you're a decade of 60 hour weeks away from a job in the C-suite.

Quite the opposite actually, despite the fact that I keep being pushed into management I prefer the technical track and could care less about future promotion. My employers also have had 8k-150k employees so making the executive level would be a rather unrealistic goal.

IME high performing/paying teams/depts/employers dont tolerate the 9-5 40/week crowd, they'll move or let those folks go quickly. Even in the "standardized" mega-corp world salaries and bonuses vary a LOT by role. Folks working or traveling longer usually have higher base salaries plus incentives and bonuses not available to others with the same title/grade just the same as ex-pats doing an overseas tour. I have been hired at 120% of the "max" corporate base for my grade several times and received role specific incentives and bonuses that added significantly on top of that. JMO but if you're in a demanding role its not difficult to negotiate a straight salaried-exempt package that surpasses any 40/week + OT rate because management usually wants to keep top performers and realizes you will get hit with a truly lousy project/situation/hours eventually.

Opinions of at-will employment like anything else will depend on your perspective. My skill set is in demand and I am not tied to the major metro I live in, so I dont need govt or even HR to protect my position thus I'd rather management have the power to quickly/easily cut the fat/problems/etc when needed to keep us surrounded by high-performing people and an awesome culture. I have seen more than one company ruined by complacency and being "too nice" to the old dead-wood.

 

[moltenmetal]

Again, if you work overtime with COMPENSATION, you're good. The compensation just can't be non-contractual promises of future consideration for promotion or salary increases. If you accept such worthless compensation, you're a sucker.

Compensation for extra time and effort can be any of the things I mentioned and it's 100% legit.

For the past 27 yrs I haven't worked 1 hour of uncompensated OT. I've done just fine, thanks. Never been without work. And I've worked LOTS of O/T- and received LOTS of very real compensation for that time. Not 1:1: not a fixed $/hr, and no promises. And yes, there were some dry years when the extra compensation was pretty low- but subsequent years more than made up for it.

As Scott Adams of Dilbert fame put it, every sacrifice of any kind you make on behalf of your employer will be accepted. Not compensated for, acknowledged or even noticed, but it will most certainly be accepted!

(

http://www.spitfireresearch.com)

 

[Jacob Henry]

You are a salary person now. and this is the part of your job. you have to face some these kind of issues. be a strong or switch your job, or start your own business.

https://mwi.solutions/technologies/wms-wcs-and-oms-software/

 

[moltenmetal]

@Jacob Henry: the expectation to consistently work uncompensated overtime is NOT "part of the job". It is exploitation and professionals shouldn't tolerate it.

(

http://www.spitfireresearch.com)

 

[TheTick]

Being salaried means defining and enforcing boundaries. That is also "part of the job".

 

[CWB1]

By definition a salary is a fixed price contract whereas hourly wage earners are on T&M. Consequently, many employers will expect you to work the hours necessary to complete your projects on time. Fail to complete them on time and management should be looking to replace you. Fail to complete them on time due to lack of effort and management should be firing you for-cause due to unprofessional behavior. Legal exceptions aside, there's no such thing as OT much less uncompensated OT in this scheme. Going down the rabbit hole a bit, I have been told by employers that their "normal" business hours were anywhere from 35-50/week but as a salaried engineer I've never been held to them so tying OT to anything beyond 40 seems muddy at best.

When someone is interviewing and considering offers they should be asking the appropriate questions needed to intelligently evaluate total compensation against total expectations. Given X you'll do Y, for each of us that varies. I know folks who refuse work that isnt part time, isnt work from home, and even one engineer that refuses work if he has to wear more than jeans and a polo. To each their own, I'm sure somebody would claim I'm a sucker for being among the best-dressed daily. Promises/potential compensation pose a risk but aren't necessarily a bad thing. If an employer has consistently given big bonuses for many years then they likely will continue. Similarly, both govt and private industry have employee development programs with structured promotions. Having been an hourly tradesman for years prior to engineering, $$$/year is my bottom line critical criteria amd I could care less if that's broken down further.

Getting back to the OP, griping about not being paid OT probably won't help. They may succeed in getting a raise or additional vacation however by pointing out how hard they have worked in addition to a history of service. OTOH, if theyre new and the "OT" simply involves meeting the same standards as everybody else then management might view such requests as disrespectful or ungrateful.

 

[phamENG]

I have to agree with CWB1 on this. As an at-will, salary employee, you have to do the job. If that's the job, so be it. It's up to you to make sure you have the appropriate compensation. If they won't give you what you feel that job is worth, then go elsewhere or renegotiate the scope of the job.

Now there are some firms out there that are playing with a modified salary scheme. You have a base salary and an hourly wage. The base salary is figured on the hourly wage at 40 hours/week, and you're guaranteed to get it. Work 35, get your salary. Work 45, and you get paid straight time for that 45 hours (salary + 5 hours worth). Most have other stipulations - the hours have to have been billable, all project schedules met, etc.

 

[dik]

I disagree, Ron... If I'm working, I'm getting paid for my effort.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

I think a big issue here is the word "overtime". Please note that this post is for the US, international law varies.

Overtime is a legal construct for hourly employees or for employees contracted to work a specific number of hours. As such, a salaried worker exempt from the Fair Labor Standards Act rules for overtime pay (engineers meet the exempt professionals job duties test for that one) doesn't 'technically' work overtime - at least not in the legal sense of the term.

I agree 100% with everyone who is saying you shouldn't give your company "free" work or do things that are uncompensated. The problem is, the work you're doing is being compensated. It's up to you to determine the appropriate level of compensation for you based on the amount of work/time you are selling to your employer and convince your employer of the same. So if you think $60k is an appropriate salary for doing your job 40 hours per week, would you think $90k to $105k is appropriate for 55 hours per week? If so, negotiate for it. You won't get it, so you probably want to negotiate for less time.

There are workplaces like CWB1 describes where they will demand a high level of performance and time from their employees. Some of them even offer appropriate compensation. Others will provide you with an environment that is less demanding - some in terms of performance, some in terms of time, and some in terms of both. The compensation is nearly always lower there, and for good reason. The trick is to find the place and position that fits both your needs and temperament.