Work-Life Balance and Pay 42

[DirtSmuggler]

Hello
I've become a salary (field) employee now. Finding myself doing a lot of overtime that I'm not getting paid for. How do I address this with management? Find myself taking work home and working for additional 2-3 hours because EVERYTHING is "urgent" and "asap". I'm not getting compensated for the additional time, even though I'm billing the client for the time. What do I do?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

By definition a salary is a fixed price contract whereas hourly wage earners are on T&M. Consequently, many employers will expect you to work the hours necessary to complete your projects on time. Fail to complete them on time and management should be looking to replace you. Fail to complete them on time due to lack of effort and management should be firing you for-cause due to unprofessional behavior.

But who decides what "on time" means? What if a manager comes to you and says "I want an entirely new machine built, and I want it done by next month." Given this might normally be a project that would take a team of 50 engineers 3 years to handle, are you at fault for not being to meet your manager's expectations? Of course not, and to think otherwise is ludicrous.

So we're back to the original point... there should be a reasonable expectation of the amount of work involved for a 40-hr work week. Poor managers (company owners?) will continually push their workers with more and more work until they're forced to work late days and long weekends to achieve the end goal. This primes the pump for abuse by the manager who can then treat the engineer like an indentured servant.

If a worker is obviously/significantly lagging behind compared to others (who also work 40 hrs/week), then there is potential justification to release the engineer back into the wild (or pay him a lower salary). But if the average engineer cannot reasonably accomplish the assigned task in the allotted time frame, there is potential justification to release the manager back into the wild (or reset his expectations as to what is an acceptable work load). The total man hours for a project is the same, but we're talking about cramming more of those hours onto each engineer's plate for the same amount of payout.

This means managers will now be dealing with projects that take longer from a calendar perspective, but the man hours haven't changed. Want to improve the calendar time? Have the engineers work more than 40 hrs/wk... but compensate them for that extra time! Straight-forward economics. That's what an open market is all about. But forcing engineers to work longer and longer hours for the same pay is a downward spiral.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[phamENG]

Dan - it is an open market. So I expect the owners to push for as much out of the employees as the employees are willing to give. The employee, in return, needs to push for as much compensation from the employer as the employer is willing to give. Each side has a line they aren't (or shouldn't) be willing to cross. The employer will only pay so much, and the employee will only do so much. They have to negotiate a balance that they can both live with. Perhaps I'm spoiled: I worked at a firm with demanding schedules and long hours, but the pay was decent and when we'd go through a bad stretch, at the end of it I'd often find an envelope on my desk with a sizeable wad of cash in it.

The idea is that the average worker won't have the wherewithal to do this as the balance of power is skewed too far in the employers direction - it's not hard to find another person to flip a burger, fold clothes in a store, add a sprocket to a widget in a line, etc. But professionals should have the ability to stand up for themselves. Now I do think that it would make sense to limit the "Professional Duties Test" to only licensed professionals and/or professionals working in a managerial capacity. If you're an EIT, your bargaining power is very limited. So the added protection could be a benefit to many. I'm not entirely sure how this would apply in license exempt industries - the definition of 'managerial' may have to be a little loose to fit properly.

 

[dik]

The professional associations should be enforcing a minimum standard...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[CWB1]

But who decides what "on time" means? What if a manager comes to you and says "I want an entirely new machine built, and I want it done by next month." Given this might normally be a project that would take a team of 50 engineers 3 years to handle, are you at fault for not being to meet your manager's expectations? Of course not, and to think otherwise is ludicrous.

Under any normal lean or agile PM organization, team members doing the actual work create the timeline as part of project planning. If the team's plan doesnt meet management's request then adjustments need to be made. Ultimately the individual team members agree to their workload and are expected to fulfill their commitment. Obviously this puts the onus on them to give due diligence to spotting issues asap and reacting to keep the project on schedule. In a 40/wk + OT scheme you're going to struggle with keeping projects on time and on budget because employees will be financially motivated to ignore minor issues until they become large enough to provide OT.

You do raise a good point about "spiraling." Change in expectations over time is definitely something employees should be on the lookout for. If compensation does not keep up with it then employees need to go elsewhere.

 

[Canuck65]

As employees transition from hourly to salary where we look back at the employee's past history of number of hours worked, efficiency, etc... With the transition to salary there is a bump in pay so that the employee will not lose money overall in the transition. Sure, the employee could then immediately stop working any overtime, but that is a rarity. Then in the future, the employee's performance is evaluated and their annual bonus takes into account factors such as number of hours worked, efficiency, performance, etc.... Don't expect the bonus to cover everything, unless it is an exception year, but at least it is something.

At the very leas you should compare what you may have been able to make if you were hourly vs. what you are making now, and have that conversation with your manager.

 

[NRP99]

Interesting and humorous read.

The problem with "overtime" is, even it's paid, it never stops. I personally feel, its ok if I am putting those extra hours occasionally as a work deadline is approaching and there's so much to do.

This post has very serious issue and tone, lot of humor in those responses and some interesting and serious tips. But one thing I missed here. Health implications of continuous stressful OT hours. The time you want to enjoy with family/leisure time is now consumed by work which not going to end even if world is ending. The stress takes toll on your health before you notice anything abnormal. Also whenever I take a proper break from day's work, I feel refreshed/replenished to do my work next day. How am I going to feel normal, lets say not wonderful/passionate, working next day, when yesterday was hell.

Another thing, OP's situation suggest there maybe problem in time estimation of work to be done which I don't know everyone faces working in project. Some experienced estimation engineer puts some benchmark hours for project tasks based on his perspective and then for cost reduction/winning the project/for happily ever after client, those hours are cut to short making the life of working engineer "stressful". But anyway this is established procedure across companies and people/system will not amend, easily.

Just imagine-You decided to go for that Star Wars movie/Marvel Cine-verse movie with friends/watch that Netflix's interesting series/any leisure time hobby which you planned in advance and your boss/wife/parent tells you to do this work immediately today instead of doing that. How much stress you get from only notion of this thought? How one is going to do better work under stress continuously without health implications? Will that hamper the work quality as well as health of an engineer? I am guessing, oh yes. Is that then recommended? Occasionally, yes. Continuously, no.

As the stress in life due to daily routine work/office politics/government policies/relationships/family/wife/life's decisions, indecisions, choices is not sufficient, working overtime continuously will be cherry on top. Why would one want to tighten the bolt, if its already yielded?

 

[DirtSmuggler]

Thank you all for the reply and suggestions.

It appears it's only one PM that demands everything to be urgent. As long as I'm not working for that one PM's job, I'm not always working very late.

However, I've noticed I've been put on a lot of jobs that require overtime, forced overtime, or long commute, simply because I'm salary whereas some of the hourly employees don't get put on those jobs. So I do feel getting taken advantage of at time. Often time there's forced overtime whereas the job is scheduled and budgeted for a 3 day job but on the second day I'm asked to work 3 hours extra to finish the job up so they don't have to do a third day. The PM and company benefits from this, and the sub contractor benefits from it, however I do not, as I don't get paid overtime or I don't get to leave early the following day. No compensation in time or money. Again feels like I'm getting taken advantage of at times like this because they don't do this with hourly employees.

In 3 months I have worked 64 hours of overtime. That's at least one week salary worth of pay. If you average it out per week, it's not a lot, but it doesn't spread like that in real. Some weeks it's just 40 and then some weeks it's 55 hours. I haven't made too much of a deal out of it with management yet because we are VERY busy and get short-staffed but I do feel the projects and jobs I'm given is strategic because I'm salary and others are hourly. I've also come to found out employees in other branches get compensated for their overtime with PTO time instead of pay.

I had my review and received very positive feedback on my performance. I mentioned how they haven't made good on the promises they made when they hired me and they said they'll do better. Meeting was cut short so couldn't bring up overtime. Brought it up later in passing but was brushes off. Trying to have another meeting so I can force a discussion on it among other promises they have made because I'm getting a lot of companies reaching out to me from employment and I'm hoping I'm not passing up on something better. They gave me a bonus but it was $1k short of what I would have been paid straight pay for my overtime. And it's what others got who haven't worked overtime.

Side note. Really glad I found this forum. A lot of really helpful people on here and reading your inputs have been fantastic. Thank you all.

 

[EnergyProfessional]

If they didn't give the opportunity to talk about it during the review meeting, you know what their motivation is.

If you can't have them talk to you and commit with specific timeline to fulfill promises, you should look at other jobs. There will be nothing better coming from them, IMHO.

Obviously all our advice is based on what you stated and we don't know and feel your every day life. So don't do anything because of some random guy on the Internet

 

[phamENG]

I'd entertain some of those calls from other firms. Find out what they're offering. I found that to be a good motivator for my boss at my old firm. Every time I got a LinkedIn message, or an email, or a phone call from a recruiter on my office phone, I would find a way to bring it up in conversation (even if the phone call ended in me telling the recruiter off for their lack of professionalism in contacting me at my employer's office). That way my boss was always aware that I was in demand and was not beholden to him or the firm. It paid off - frequent raises, bonuses, nice projects, etc.

I eventually left because one of those calls was way too nice to pass up. So if you love where you work, reminding them of your worth to the outside world could benefit you there. If you're ambivalent toward your current employer, it could show you what else is out there.

 

[TigerGuy]

I side with Ron on this. 64 hours across 3 months averages out to 5 hours per week extra. I've never worked a salaried position that included a lower average, but the compensation package covered that extra time. My paycheck never changed, but there were tradeoffs, and I have generally had rational employers. They worked with me when something came up at home. I've also worked 17-hour days to get the job done.

It's a give and take, but only if the boss is reasonable.

 

[LittleInch]

I think like I've said before, there is an element of taking the rough with the smooth. The rough bit no one likes, but is there sufficient "smooth" to compensate.

Only you can decide, but the cutting short of the review and brush off from your next attempt I think tells you where they see this issue. If you really do know the bonuses were equal and not related to additional time then that's a bit of a pisser.

I wouldn't be quite so obvious about taking calls or letting it be know you're looking elsewhere, but talking to people who ask you is never a bad thing, just don't bad mouth your current location too much - word gets around and no one wants a whining employee. You might find in reality they are all the same...

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[phamENG]

For the record I wasn't advocating telling your boss you're looking...I would just mention that "firm XYZ reached out to me last week, I guess they need people"..."a recruiter contacted me on LinkedIn last night"..."I keep getting annoying recruiter calls on my office line - is there a way we can get the front desk to screen those better?"...that sort of stuff. Just not-so-subtle hints that other firms want me, so you'd better keep me happy if you want me, too.

 

[Guest090822]

I left my first job for the exact same reason - uncompensated overtime and worked for a PM that was a "workaholic" and didn't want to go home at night because he hated his wife.

I just left work after my 8 hours, but then they gave me a cell phone. When I got reprimanded for not answering on a Saturday I quit the following week.

 

[ukengineer58]

If the compant isnt paying you for the hours but is billing the clients - what costs are they incurring? To me thats fraud. and why not make the working week 20 hours and have you work the rest for free.

 

[phamENG]

ukengineer58 - That's a pretty serious accusation. Fraud might be the company billing the client for hours and telling the client that you're getting overtime as a condition of the contract but not paying you, or telling them that they're saving a puppy from being killed for every 5 over time hours and not doing it. But billing a client based on hours worked in accordance with a contract and then paying the salary of an employee based on the terms of that employment agreement (whether contractual or not) is honest business and decidedly not fraud.

And what costs are they incurring? Plenty. Fuel for the truck being used. Wear and tear on the truck/equipment being used. Risk exposure for doing the work. There are numerous hard and soft costs involved in every hour worked whether direct labor costs are considered or not.

I'm not saying the OP got a good deal or that they shouldn't seek better compensation, they didn't and they should. But I am saying that accusing the company of fraud is a bit over the top. Unless, of course, you consider that employees are committing fraud when they collect full paychecks on weeks they don't work a full 40 hours because they don't have enough project running but, because they're salaried, the employer still honors their side of the employment agreement?

 

[MotorCity]

You should have discussed this with your boss BEFORE you found yourself in this situation. This would be at the top of my list of questions when going from hourly to salary. Unfortunately, you and your boss have agreed on your current situation. If you try and re-negotiate now, there are two possible scenarios. First, your boss says "no" to any additional compensation or to changing you back to hourly. Then what? Do you look for a new job or keep working extra hours for free? The second option would be for your boss to agree to additional compensation or to change you back to hourly. I don't think this is likely because management has probably given this more thought than you have and likes the idea of salaried positions rather than paying out overtime.

 

[geotechguy1]

I think it's important to keep in mind the differences between the USA and rest of the world - business practices which would be flagrantly illegal / unethical / fraudulent in the rest of the world are commonly accepted as the norm and defended as ethical stateside.

 

[CWB1]

JMO but griping about 45/wk average and the occasional 55 is a bit ridiculous. If a subordinate griped much about that I'd likely walk their entitled self out before others' morale suffered. Junior engineers in every office I have been in were expected to pull 50+ for their first 1-2 years simply to jump from grad to professional with some basic knowledge and abilities. Beyond that, do what the job requires or find another.

...why not make the working week 20 hours and have you work the rest for free.

Why bother defining work hours? I'm paid X to do/design Y. Sometimes that requires constant focused effort and/or OT for weeks, at others it requires minimal effort and 30/wk. Domestic projects usually get done 8-4, international projects often have me on calls with Asia at 6 am and/or pm. Flex schedules and working remotely have become common for good reason, and many of us simply wont work in offices with unrealistically rigid expectations any longer bc it makes zero sense for employees nor the business. M-F 8-4 you say? - Good luck filling that position boomer, see you at the liquidation auction.

I think it's important to keep in mind the differences between the USA and rest of the world...

Yes, like the fact that professionals stateside are treated like adults and allowed to negotiate their own terms, hence being much better compensated. Sorry not sorry but I dont need a warning on the cup to know coffee is hot, instructions to wipe my butt, nor govt intervention on other similarly trivial matters.

 

[KENAT]

Unless, of course, you consider that employees are committing fraud when they collect full paychecks on weeks they don't work a full 40 hours because they don't have enough project running but, because they're salaried, the employer still honors their side of the employment agreement?

Please warn us when you're going to make cracks like that phamENG, I nearly shot hot tea all over my laptop. That scenario is as unrealistic from my Engineering experience as the villains in an Ayn Rand novel. The idea of not having enough work to fill 40 hours (or 37 back in Blighty) is hard to imagine.


Youniccon - I'm in a somewhat different field/situation to you so take with a big pinch of salt but... Do you have a direct boss that isn't this specific PM? Do you have a halfway decent relationship with them? If so then how about talking to them about it, not in a stereotypical whining millenial/zennial/gen Z or whatever silly label folks like to use way, but just to get a better understanding of how much 'extra' they expect and how to handle it etc.

However, this is a bit of a do as I say not as I do situation (which with hindsight a lot of the input I've given in these soft fora probably was) I may be the guy with the plank in his eye giving tips to someone about how to get the sawdust out of theirs.

I've had your PM type back in the day, a pressure pusher as I think my then boss (or former boss or something like that) at the time called him. Got to the point I had semi-permanent neck pain from dealing with him (the kind that has you wonder is this angina or maybe a heart attack), I basically rode that one out till I got taken off his project and got given what turned out to be something far more enjoyable for a few years (though still hectic/stressful) and the neck pain went away - most of the time.

I have a PM who is a bit similar currently though before the project kicked off I talked to my direct supervisor on topics of how much extra was going to be expected - or perhaps more me clearly stating the limitations on what I would commit. It may or not catch up with me, we'll see.

So you have my commiserations.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[phamENG]

Please warn us when you're going to make cracks like that phamENG, I nearly shot hot tea all over my laptop.

Ha. My sincerest apologies. I agree it's pretty rare - but that's mostly because the employer is more likely to lay somebody off if it's going to be a prolonged issue. I have seen it some - a few years ago around the holidays things really slowed down and we were working 30 hour weeks for the month of December. Really quite nice (for the salaried engineers without a stake, anyway). And I know of a few firms that had to dip into credit lines and make-work activities with the pandemic hit and everybody slammed on the brakes. That has more than reversed itself around here, but things do happen.