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working overseas 2
- Thread starter purdue87
- Start date
Bit off topic but think about the cultural aspects of it, things are a bit different over there. Some jobs you'd end up living virtually in a compound for foreigners.
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- Thread starter
- #22
Maybe not, but I'm guessing they don't yet have religious police checking on various aspects of your behaviour outside of office hours etc.
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- Thread starter
- #24
It also depends on which Middle East Country you want to work. Saudi Arabia is more strict on religion (I don't want to elaborate further, as it has the potential to start a very aggressive thread on a different subject altogether !!). Oman has churches and temples and gives reasonable religious freedom. Dubai is a very open kind of country and so on.
Pay structures are highly dependent on various factors and it's very hard to give a number or % premium that one would get as compared to the US or any other country.
Good luck
HVAC68
Pay structures are highly dependent on various factors and it's very hard to give a number or % premium that one would get as compared to the US or any other country.
Good luck
HVAC68
By the way purdue, I've heard even some of the middle eastern markets aren't doing as well as they were, Dubai for example.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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- Thread starter
- #28
if you look at the websites of:
GE
halliburton
jacobs / sverdrup
Fluor
Bechtel
Foster wheeler
CH2MHill
Shell
Conoco Phillips
BP
Chevron
Anadarko
Occidental
Schlumberger
Baker Hughes......
you'll quickly see which overseas countries are the most popular right now. europe / china / and australia suprised me the most....
Thanks,
Scott
GE
halliburton
jacobs / sverdrup
Fluor
Bechtel
Foster wheeler
CH2MHill
Shell
Conoco Phillips
BP
Chevron
Anadarko
Occidental
Schlumberger
Baker Hughes......
you'll quickly see which overseas countries are the most popular right now. europe / china / and australia suprised me the most....
Thanks,
Scott
AeroNucDef
Aerospace
Hi,
What's the best paid.
Using Qatar as an example;
Working for a USA/UK company that operates in Qatar, or a non-foreign Qatar company?
What's the best paid.
Using Qatar as an example;
Working for a USA/UK company that operates in Qatar, or a non-foreign Qatar company?
Purdue87 - HVAC68 gives some useful advice especially when making the point 1. It depends on various things such as how desperate the middle east market requires you - i.e. are you a professional who is in demand in the ME market?.
What is your skill set?
I have worked overseas, specifically the Middle East and you have to realise that much of the work up to (and often beyond) the level of junior management is carried out either by locals or Asians (mainly from India, Pakistan and the Philipines)who for the most part provide an excellent quality of work for a benefits package that is significantly lower than that expected from a western expat. Its a generalisation but, most of the western expat jobs are in supervisory positions where you are looking after the interests of a western company and making sure that company policy is adhered to in a foreign climate.
What is your skill set?
I have worked overseas, specifically the Middle East and you have to realise that much of the work up to (and often beyond) the level of junior management is carried out either by locals or Asians (mainly from India, Pakistan and the Philipines)who for the most part provide an excellent quality of work for a benefits package that is significantly lower than that expected from a western expat. Its a generalisation but, most of the western expat jobs are in supervisory positions where you are looking after the interests of a western company and making sure that company policy is adhered to in a foreign climate.
- Thread starter
- #32
-
2
- #33
Chem engineer I know with about 20-25 yrs experience in Qatar for the last couple of years on family status is making $8,000/mo base pay,
+ round trip tickets to home base once per year for family
+ housing is furnished
+ accompanying children provided with school fees
+ car is furnished, or fig allowance of +\-$500/mo paid
+ transportation arrangements for wife if no women driving allowed
+ retirement contribution is paid (about 10%/yr)
+ medical insurance for the family is paid (no deductable)
Taxes?
If you work for a division of a US company, there is a W2 that goes with that, so expect to pay full taxes there. If you don't get a W2, maybe you'll have some "flexibility".
You are allowed to earn up to 90k +/- of foreign paid income w/o paying tax on that, but tax is figured on total income.
Total Income is figured as salary + benefits,
which includes housing benefits (in some cases you can apply an exclusion or a % of value thereof),
which includes medical insurance,
which includes car allowance,
which includes retirement contribution,
which includes air tickets,
which includes school fee benefits.
and anything else of value you might get your hands on during the year.
The 90k is deducted from total income and you pay tax on any remainder. To qualify, you must be outside the US for 330 days in any year you claim the exclusion. The time of overflights of the US and any of its territories is counted as time in the US.
From my perspective, I wouldn't take 8,000 to do that, but I've had enough of the ME, thank you very much. I don't even like working on ME projects even if they are being engineered in a London, or Paris.
Base pay can vary from one ME country to another, kind-of according to how well they think they've got it in relation to their neighbors. (? ya I know, its kind of an excuse to offer less because they're not Saudi Arabia.)
A general rate for short term engineering contracts in "foreign" oil and gas related projects has been around 500 £ (let's say $750/day) for a heavy weight experienced expert kind-of guy. Includes housing and in some cases food and whatever your rotation tickets might be. No family status. Foreign can be London in some circumstances (but rate is w/o housing, transport, or food), any Oilstan country, African bases, etc. Been that way for the last couple of years or so. If you can convince a client that you are very very good, with the exact experience they want and you're damn good in negotiations , you might be able to squeeze out a little bit more.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
+ round trip tickets to home base once per year for family
+ housing is furnished
+ accompanying children provided with school fees
+ car is furnished, or fig allowance of +\-$500/mo paid
+ transportation arrangements for wife if no women driving allowed
+ retirement contribution is paid (about 10%/yr)
+ medical insurance for the family is paid (no deductable)
Taxes?
If you work for a division of a US company, there is a W2 that goes with that, so expect to pay full taxes there. If you don't get a W2, maybe you'll have some "flexibility".
You are allowed to earn up to 90k +/- of foreign paid income w/o paying tax on that, but tax is figured on total income.
Total Income is figured as salary + benefits,
which includes housing benefits (in some cases you can apply an exclusion or a % of value thereof),
which includes medical insurance,
which includes car allowance,
which includes retirement contribution,
which includes air tickets,
which includes school fee benefits.
and anything else of value you might get your hands on during the year.
The 90k is deducted from total income and you pay tax on any remainder. To qualify, you must be outside the US for 330 days in any year you claim the exclusion. The time of overflights of the US and any of its territories is counted as time in the US.
From my perspective, I wouldn't take 8,000 to do that, but I've had enough of the ME, thank you very much. I don't even like working on ME projects even if they are being engineered in a London, or Paris.
Base pay can vary from one ME country to another, kind-of according to how well they think they've got it in relation to their neighbors. (? ya I know, its kind of an excuse to offer less because they're not Saudi Arabia.)
A general rate for short term engineering contracts in "foreign" oil and gas related projects has been around 500 £ (let's say $750/day) for a heavy weight experienced expert kind-of guy. Includes housing and in some cases food and whatever your rotation tickets might be. No family status. Foreign can be London in some circumstances (but rate is w/o housing, transport, or food), any Oilstan country, African bases, etc. Been that way for the last couple of years or so. If you can convince a client that you are very very good, with the exact experience they want and you're damn good in negotiations , you might be able to squeeze out a little bit more.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
- Thread starter
- #34
You have to understand why you get paid more to work in foreign lands where the culture is different to home. It is not as romantic or as big an adventure as you might think and the risks are certainly higher.
In Islamic countries there are issues concerning religious observence, alcohol consumption, associating with the opposite sex, dress code, use of vehicles and being in traffic accidents, bribery, kidnapping, illness/injury, crime etc.
Do you homework and go with eyes wide open.
If you come to Australia you will probably be paid less than you would get in the USA but you dont have to worry about all the above except possibly drinking too much alcohol, dressing badly and fraternising with the opposite sex. These are all encouraged.
In Islamic countries there are issues concerning religious observence, alcohol consumption, associating with the opposite sex, dress code, use of vehicles and being in traffic accidents, bribery, kidnapping, illness/injury, crime etc.
Do you homework and go with eyes wide open.
If you come to Australia you will probably be paid less than you would get in the USA but you dont have to worry about all the above except possibly drinking too much alcohol, dressing badly and fraternising with the opposite sex. These are all encouraged.
You encouraged me, so here are some specific ideas to run with. Some maybe obvious, others maybe not. Well anyway...
Speaking of traffic accidents, "If you weren't here, then this accident could not have happened, so its your fault.", has been known (or at least widely reported) to have been the verdict in many cases involving expats.
Guilty until proven innocent.
Other things can get to you too, like standing behind a very large crowd all trying to get the last seats on the flight out, and you don't speak the language. BTW its 57.2 C (135 F) ... in the shade and the airport window unit air conditioners were stolen 18 months ago, or arn't working for whatever reason.
Missing the "connection next day" advisory on your airline ticket.
8 hour fligth to a 10 hour truck ride on a bumpy road.
Having your luggage opened and searched in the street, then just because they found a map in there, a 2 hour trip to a 4 hour interview with the police captain of the nearest town.
Having to pay your last 100 to the emigration inspector so you don't have to go downtown and wait till next Tuesday to show the quy that can read that your papers really are in order.
Getting deported because the work permit your company was applying for wasn't accompanied with the customary "push".
Getting hit by a guy with no insurance. That's fun.
Topping off the "heating oil" fund for the apartment complex you're living in each month.
Having to pay "export tax" on a computer that you brought into the country. Having to pay "import tax" on a computer you're bringing into the country.
Everybody always asking how much your watch cost you.
Waiting for the helicopter to pick you up after 24 hours out on site, now 4 hrs late and ... the last guy there had drank all the water before he left.
Getting shot at. That's fun.
Strike, lockdown and ... no deliveries to the camp for 3 weeks.
Getting 10% paid on your invoice.
Getting stiffed for 25k.
Guerillas in police uniforms at the roadblock up ahead. ...
200 km of bad road and finding the bridge on fire... so that's another 6 hrs going around that. I ran across the bridge and got a taxi on the other side.
In Texas we had pretty big mosquitos, but there are bigger ones out there .. with bioweapons.
Going 2 hours to the town everybody said had a bus to the big city only to find out that there isn't even a bus stop there.
Gunfight at the hotel patio.
No local holidays and being the only one on the road at 6:30 am. (But that has its good side too).
700 km of right of way to run and no helicopter.
Power cuts every morning and at just before lunch, and your office is on the 11th floor. BTW its also 100 F and 100% humidity with only 2 windows on the floor that open.
London tubes at 6 PM.
London tubes at 1 AM.
Alcohol in some places can get you two weeks in a pretty nasty jail followed by immediate deportation, IF you are lucky! You don't want to know what could happen if you're not lucky.
12/7 day shift
12/7 night shift
Turning the corner on the way to the mess hall and finding you're face to face with a 100 kg baboon.
English airport security.
Turkish security anywhere.
All your CDs melted on the car seat.
$10/lb for lettuce.
$10 for a 4-pack of toilet paper.
$150 for a bottle of JD.
$100 for anything you happen to think you need at the moment.
$10/minute overseas calls.
Losing most all your "good-ole-boy" job network.
Getting divorced for the Xth time.
Noticing your kid is writing his all his numbers (except 6) starting at the bottom.
Earthquakes.
Rain lasting more than 1 day.
Doctors.
Dentists.
Hospitals.
Any needle.
Local suppliers packing guns and looking for the site finance manager. (Can be a good thing.)
The weather in England.
Did I mention happening into and being pushed to the front row of spectators at a public execution? That'll leave an impression.
Fish market in summer. Meat market any time.
Permanent jet lag.
Bomb at the compound.
The good things,
Alcohol in some places can get you anything you want.
Complaining about the price of gas (just raised to 25c/liter)
Keeping your vacation plans secret.
In some places people enjoy driving to work in the rain.
Money in the bank when you get back, but not much else (and that being subject to the divorce procedings).
Other nice people "in the same boat" ... for awhile anyway ... that you will never, never, ever forget.
-----------------------------------------
Stainer, Not always. I didn't take that job I asked you about a few years back because the exchanged rate the Aussie division of that American company was going to pay was less than what you said was your norm and, as I recall, Aussie taxes can be pretty high. (figuring rightly, or wrongly, that we're about = experienced and I don't undercut anybody ... well ... as long as I'm eating regular.)
------------------------------------------
P.S. Don't use the toothpicks.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
Speaking of traffic accidents, "If you weren't here, then this accident could not have happened, so its your fault.", has been known (or at least widely reported) to have been the verdict in many cases involving expats.
Guilty until proven innocent.
Other things can get to you too, like standing behind a very large crowd all trying to get the last seats on the flight out, and you don't speak the language. BTW its 57.2 C (135 F) ... in the shade and the airport window unit air conditioners were stolen 18 months ago, or arn't working for whatever reason.
Missing the "connection next day" advisory on your airline ticket.
8 hour fligth to a 10 hour truck ride on a bumpy road.
Having your luggage opened and searched in the street, then just because they found a map in there, a 2 hour trip to a 4 hour interview with the police captain of the nearest town.
Having to pay your last 100 to the emigration inspector so you don't have to go downtown and wait till next Tuesday to show the quy that can read that your papers really are in order.
Getting deported because the work permit your company was applying for wasn't accompanied with the customary "push".
Getting hit by a guy with no insurance. That's fun.
Topping off the "heating oil" fund for the apartment complex you're living in each month.
Having to pay "export tax" on a computer that you brought into the country. Having to pay "import tax" on a computer you're bringing into the country.
Everybody always asking how much your watch cost you.
Waiting for the helicopter to pick you up after 24 hours out on site, now 4 hrs late and ... the last guy there had drank all the water before he left.
Getting shot at. That's fun.
Strike, lockdown and ... no deliveries to the camp for 3 weeks.
Getting 10% paid on your invoice.
Getting stiffed for 25k.
Guerillas in police uniforms at the roadblock up ahead. ...
200 km of bad road and finding the bridge on fire... so that's another 6 hrs going around that. I ran across the bridge and got a taxi on the other side.
In Texas we had pretty big mosquitos, but there are bigger ones out there .. with bioweapons.
Going 2 hours to the town everybody said had a bus to the big city only to find out that there isn't even a bus stop there.
Gunfight at the hotel patio.
No local holidays and being the only one on the road at 6:30 am. (But that has its good side too).
700 km of right of way to run and no helicopter.
Power cuts every morning and at just before lunch, and your office is on the 11th floor. BTW its also 100 F and 100% humidity with only 2 windows on the floor that open.
London tubes at 6 PM.
London tubes at 1 AM.
Alcohol in some places can get you two weeks in a pretty nasty jail followed by immediate deportation, IF you are lucky! You don't want to know what could happen if you're not lucky.
12/7 day shift
12/7 night shift
Turning the corner on the way to the mess hall and finding you're face to face with a 100 kg baboon.
English airport security.
Turkish security anywhere.
All your CDs melted on the car seat.
$10/lb for lettuce.
$10 for a 4-pack of toilet paper.
$150 for a bottle of JD.
$100 for anything you happen to think you need at the moment.
$10/minute overseas calls.
Losing most all your "good-ole-boy" job network.
Getting divorced for the Xth time.
Noticing your kid is writing his all his numbers (except 6) starting at the bottom.
Earthquakes.
Rain lasting more than 1 day.
Doctors.
Dentists.
Hospitals.
Any needle.
Local suppliers packing guns and looking for the site finance manager. (Can be a good thing.)
The weather in England.
Did I mention happening into and being pushed to the front row of spectators at a public execution? That'll leave an impression.
Fish market in summer. Meat market any time.
Permanent jet lag.
Bomb at the compound.
The good things,
Alcohol in some places can get you anything you want.
Complaining about the price of gas (just raised to 25c/liter)
Keeping your vacation plans secret.
In some places people enjoy driving to work in the rain.
Money in the bank when you get back, but not much else (and that being subject to the divorce procedings).
Other nice people "in the same boat" ... for awhile anyway ... that you will never, never, ever forget.
-----------------------------------------
Stainer, Not always. I didn't take that job I asked you about a few years back because the exchanged rate the Aussie division of that American company was going to pay was less than what you said was your norm and, as I recall, Aussie taxes can be pretty high. (figuring rightly, or wrongly, that we're about = experienced and I don't undercut anybody ... well ... as long as I'm eating regular.)
------------------------------------------
P.S. Don't use the toothpicks.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
- Thread starter
- #37
I always thought of writing a guide to working expat. Maybe that's the start of it. I think I might have been somewhat biased in what I mentioned, but I figured the recruiters will tell you all the good stuff and conveniently forget to mention (or not even know) about those things.
You have to put up with a lot sometimes, but in the end, I probably wouldn't have done it any other way. I've always had the philosophy that in the end, "I never wanted to say, Hey I wish I did that." I think I've been true to that so far. Even crashed a couple of ultralight airplanes along the way.
Did I mention getting arrested by the coast quard for scuba diving without a permit.
Let us know what you do.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
You have to put up with a lot sometimes, but in the end, I probably wouldn't have done it any other way. I've always had the philosophy that in the end, "I never wanted to say, Hey I wish I did that." I think I've been true to that so far. Even crashed a couple of ultralight airplanes along the way.
Did I mention getting arrested by the coast quard for scuba diving without a permit.
Let us know what you do.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
mauricestoker
Mechanical
BigInch,
You missed some of the real fun things about working in Turkey. Airports are where you really feel special, like at Ankara, where the screening is done (to include full cavity search) behind a wheeled in screen. The engineer I worked with in Cakmakli had to return wrist watches so often that he started taking the 2-day bus ride instead. Largest problem with that was the occassional RPG. It sure is fun to go to your hotel and see RPG netting on the entire facade. If you've flown on THY (They Hate You) airline, you get used to the three bounce landing followed by all the masks dropping. If possible always get a lower floor room as most places don't have fire trucks or code requirements. Worst of all, if you are on an upper floor, you can usually see the dead birds, trash and insects in the drinking water towers. I got used to beer brushing.
Not that Turkey is special; I rather liked working there, the food and the people. It's a little different when you head east. Standard joke was "this is not the edge of nowhere but you can see it from here". Eating locally was risky, even with gamma globulin shots.
Other countries have their fun. I got to see the grand opening of a software headquarters get RPG'd on the day it opened (glad I didn't take that job).
Negotiations are a world different. I've never had as much fun as negotiating contracts, anywhere in the middle east or on the Med. In Greece, it was expected to drink heavily during negoitions, so acquiring a taste for retsina and ouzo was mandatory. Going between Greece and Turkey on the same passport was always a guarantee for trouble, or at least full cavity search on the pavement, and if you go to one middle east country on the same passport as going to an Islam country, trouble was guaranteed. I ended up using my Soggiorno (Italian work pass) in lieu of passport and had less trouble.
I was working in the Middle East when Desert Storm/Desert Shield erupted; that was certainly a contingency I didn't expect.
All that said, it still seemed safer than walking through Anacostia at night.
You missed some of the real fun things about working in Turkey. Airports are where you really feel special, like at Ankara, where the screening is done (to include full cavity search) behind a wheeled in screen. The engineer I worked with in Cakmakli had to return wrist watches so often that he started taking the 2-day bus ride instead. Largest problem with that was the occassional RPG. It sure is fun to go to your hotel and see RPG netting on the entire facade. If you've flown on THY (They Hate You) airline, you get used to the three bounce landing followed by all the masks dropping. If possible always get a lower floor room as most places don't have fire trucks or code requirements. Worst of all, if you are on an upper floor, you can usually see the dead birds, trash and insects in the drinking water towers. I got used to beer brushing.
Not that Turkey is special; I rather liked working there, the food and the people. It's a little different when you head east. Standard joke was "this is not the edge of nowhere but you can see it from here". Eating locally was risky, even with gamma globulin shots.
Other countries have their fun. I got to see the grand opening of a software headquarters get RPG'd on the day it opened (glad I didn't take that job).
Negotiations are a world different. I've never had as much fun as negotiating contracts, anywhere in the middle east or on the Med. In Greece, it was expected to drink heavily during negoitions, so acquiring a taste for retsina and ouzo was mandatory. Going between Greece and Turkey on the same passport was always a guarantee for trouble, or at least full cavity search on the pavement, and if you go to one middle east country on the same passport as going to an Islam country, trouble was guaranteed. I ended up using my Soggiorno (Italian work pass) in lieu of passport and had less trouble.
I was working in the Middle East when Desert Storm/Desert Shield erupted; that was certainly a contingency I didn't expect.
All that said, it still seemed safer than walking through Anacostia at night.
Well of course. That's the only airline in Turkey, although they only had a few flights per week to the eastern side.
I agree that overall Turkey was one of the better places that I have worked. I was there twice. I did get really sick for a month after eating at one place though.
I missed the festivities in Riyadh but still got there in time to pick up pieces of scuds at the various impact sites around the city. One was right next to the office. Destroyed the national identity card issuing center or something like that. Saadam launched a couple in 1993 or so, but I think they went into the Gulf.
Crossing borders is easiest away from checkpoints.
I've managed a number excursions w/o the usual formalities. Had to go back to a country I was deported from (no work permit) for a couple of weeks one time. That sure gives you a different perspective. When my permit was approved I had to cross the border to stamp my passport at the consulate in the next country then return legally. I worked in Laredo for a couple of years, so I knew how to do it. Still have the old passport with "DEPORTED" punched in the cover page.
The Turkish police can get pretty nasty if you cross the wrong path there, although I was never accorded the honor of a strip search. We had one guy they held for a weekend interrogation session when he had some dispute with the mafia at a place in Ankara. He wasn't a happy camper on Monday.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
I agree that overall Turkey was one of the better places that I have worked. I was there twice. I did get really sick for a month after eating at one place though.
I missed the festivities in Riyadh but still got there in time to pick up pieces of scuds at the various impact sites around the city. One was right next to the office. Destroyed the national identity card issuing center or something like that. Saadam launched a couple in 1993 or so, but I think they went into the Gulf.
Crossing borders is easiest away from checkpoints.
I've managed a number excursions w/o the usual formalities. Had to go back to a country I was deported from (no work permit) for a couple of weeks one time. That sure gives you a different perspective. When my permit was approved I had to cross the border to stamp my passport at the consulate in the next country then return legally. I worked in Laredo for a couple of years, so I knew how to do it. Still have the old passport with "DEPORTED" punched in the cover page.
The Turkish police can get pretty nasty if you cross the wrong path there, although I was never accorded the honor of a strip search. We had one guy they held for a weekend interrogation session when he had some dispute with the mafia at a place in Ankara. He wasn't a happy camper on Monday.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
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