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24-level building tower fire in West London 33
- Thread starter Ingenuity
- Start date
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
Scotty UK,
It appears to be a classic SAR (Search and Recovery) operation. The building is divided by floor and into quadrants and the location of bodies or body parts are identified. During the operation, specialists with structural engineering training evaluate the structure and define no-go zones, which can hopefully be briged or otherwise braced so that a search can be completed. The protectve clothing includes HEPA filters on the face masks because of the potential for asbestos exposure.
It appears to be a classic SAR (Search and Recovery) operation. The building is divided by floor and into quadrants and the location of bodies or body parts are identified. During the operation, specialists with structural engineering training evaluate the structure and define no-go zones, which can hopefully be briged or otherwise braced so that a search can be completed. The protectve clothing includes HEPA filters on the face masks because of the potential for asbestos exposure.
dik,
I don't think there were any sprinklers. See news report links above particularly Martinle's
I don't think there were any sprinklers. See news report links above particularly Martinle's
Why is there disbelief that the fire started from a refrigerator? According to the firefighters who attended when my refrigerator caught fire (after my son and daughter had extinguished it with a blanket) this type fire is common. And they said the most dangerous thing in a house is an old clock radio, sitting on a wooden bedside table. If it is 10 years old, replace it.
georgeverghese
Chemical
LittleInch, In the oil and gas business, it is standard practice to install flammable gas detection devices in all Zone 2 poorly ventilated areas - these can be wired into a central Fire and Gas Panel to close off any or all sources of gas feed into the plant in the event of an emergency. These are usually set to trigger a plant alarm at 25% LEL and auto execute a sequenced shutdown and isolation of the plant.
I read a report of someone who complained about this on Grenfell and the fact that were no gas detection devices installed in the poorly ventilated internal stairwell through which some gas lines were passing through.
I read a report of someone who complained about this on Grenfell and the fact that were no gas detection devices installed in the poorly ventilated internal stairwell through which some gas lines were passing through.
Dik,
I don't know either, but there are reports, including this one. I was just responding to some comments above that appeared to discount the possibility of a fridge fire.
I don't know either, but there are reports, including this one. I was just responding to some comments above that appeared to discount the possibility of a fridge fire.
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1
- #108
Reading through the 2012 Planning and Permit drawings at The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea website link that Ingenuity provided, it appears that during the planning & public comment stage there was a contractor, Leadbitter originally designated as the assigned builder. Also the original cladding system was presented to the tenants as VMZ Composite with a FR mineral-rich polyethylene core. In finalizing the project, Leadbitter was over the budget by over a million British Pounds, so the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea decided to put the project out to public bid. As near as I can tell there doesn't appear to have been a set of Specifications to accompany the drawings offered to bidders by The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea & issued by the Architect. I'm thinking the proposals submitted by Facade & Curtain-wall contractors are open to whatever particular brand of cladding they feel meets the goals and which they are accustom to working with. I have read on the internet that in the UK, even if there wasn't an particular level of Fire Resistance specified, in the UK it does not absolve the responsible parties from insuring the proper safety standard is met. Under the law, if you undertake to perform the work you are obligated to know the standards. So the facade contractor, the general contractor, the TMO/property management are all on the hook. The Local Planning Authority also seems to be on the hook. In the Decision paper by the Town Planner authorizing the work, it states:
Detailed drawings or samples of materials as appropriate, in respect of the
following, shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Local
Planning Authority before the relevant part of the work is begun and the
works shall not be carried out other than in accordance with the details so
approved and shall thereafter be so maintained:
·
Materials to be used on the external faces of the building(s)
The building had a problem with heat buildup in the summer and the center pivot windows were chosen to assist with air exchange but may have created a convection effect. Apparently the floor to window height of the existing concrete spandrel panels was too low & presented a risk of falling, if one were to lean to far out the window. That might explain the odd section drawing LittleInch posted. Having lived in a building with poor air turnover, it would not surprise me if some tenants left the front doors open to facilitate a better draft, exacerbating the updraft once the fire got going. How many left the door to their unit open when they fled?
UK refrigerators have Isobutane refrigerant as a replacement for Freon. Pre-2010 Isobutane Exploding refrigerators are a real possibility. Some of the evacuees reported seeing blue flames and hearing explosions as they fled. It seems refrigerator explosions occur most often at night, after the refrigerator door has been closed for an extended time.
The facade supplier appears to be OMNIS. While Reynobond PE is the suspected culprit. OMNIS produces & supplies more than one brand of ACM. They have removed their ACM .pdf spec sheet from their website. OMNIS had bought out Rigidal while it was under reorganization; right about the time the facade contractor, Harley was the low bidder...,
The Celotex type insulation doesn't strike me as the overwhelming fuel component. Much of the charred insulation remains in place on the spandral panels and large lightly scorched pieces of it are on the ground where they came away from the columns. It is the ACM low density polyethylene LDPE core that burned so rapidly. Same material as a plastic milk jug. Unlike the Celotex, it is a thermoplastic instead of a thermo-setting plastic. It melts, that's why it is used to make milk jugs in high volume. You can also find LDPE in many commercial waxes. Unbelievably, the people responsible, basically turned this building into a candle. Ingenuity's Red-Bold earlier post is very informative as to how this fire spread both up & down the facade. Cut up a milk jug and light a piece of it on fire, it burns very easily.
Detailed drawings or samples of materials as appropriate, in respect of the
following, shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Local
Planning Authority before the relevant part of the work is begun and the
works shall not be carried out other than in accordance with the details so
approved and shall thereafter be so maintained:
·
Materials to be used on the external faces of the building(s)
The building had a problem with heat buildup in the summer and the center pivot windows were chosen to assist with air exchange but may have created a convection effect. Apparently the floor to window height of the existing concrete spandrel panels was too low & presented a risk of falling, if one were to lean to far out the window. That might explain the odd section drawing LittleInch posted. Having lived in a building with poor air turnover, it would not surprise me if some tenants left the front doors open to facilitate a better draft, exacerbating the updraft once the fire got going. How many left the door to their unit open when they fled?
UK refrigerators have Isobutane refrigerant as a replacement for Freon. Pre-2010 Isobutane Exploding refrigerators are a real possibility. Some of the evacuees reported seeing blue flames and hearing explosions as they fled. It seems refrigerator explosions occur most often at night, after the refrigerator door has been closed for an extended time.
The facade supplier appears to be OMNIS. While Reynobond PE is the suspected culprit. OMNIS produces & supplies more than one brand of ACM. They have removed their ACM .pdf spec sheet from their website. OMNIS had bought out Rigidal while it was under reorganization; right about the time the facade contractor, Harley was the low bidder...,
The Celotex type insulation doesn't strike me as the overwhelming fuel component. Much of the charred insulation remains in place on the spandral panels and large lightly scorched pieces of it are on the ground where they came away from the columns. It is the ACM low density polyethylene LDPE core that burned so rapidly. Same material as a plastic milk jug. Unlike the Celotex, it is a thermoplastic instead of a thermo-setting plastic. It melts, that's why it is used to make milk jugs in high volume. You can also find LDPE in many commercial waxes. Unbelievably, the people responsible, basically turned this building into a candle. Ingenuity's Red-Bold earlier post is very informative as to how this fire spread both up & down the facade. Cut up a milk jug and light a piece of it on fire, it burns very easily.
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1
- #109
georgeverghese
Chemical
Both Kingspan and Celotex are made of the same stuff: polyisocyanurate - thermal conductivitity k is stated to be 0.025w/m/K.
While that for mineral wool used on external walls has a k value of 0.035w/m/k.
Have a read of the fire risk para in Wikipedia on the topic polyisocyanurate.
While that for mineral wool used on external walls has a k value of 0.035w/m/k.
Have a read of the fire risk para in Wikipedia on the topic polyisocyanurate.
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
I'm curious... why would a long-closed refrigerator door lead to higher chance of explosion? I would have expected less heat loss led to less compressor cycling, which, on average, would reduce chances for explosion. Or is there some form of pressure build-up when a compressor doesn't cycle as often?
Dan - Owner
![URL]](https://res.cloudinary.com/engtips/image/fetch/w_800,c_lfill,q_auto,f_auto,g_faces:center/[URL unfurl="true"]http://hi-tecdesigns.com/images/pictures/Footwell%20Animation%20Tiny.gif[/URL])
Dan - Owner
LittleInch
Petroleum
George - This was a domestic block of flats not a chemical plant.... I'm well aware of what O&G F&G systems look like, but you don't get that level of sophistication in a council or indeed any other type of tower block...
Also rockwool is good stuff, but not if it gets wet - this is the UK where it tends, normally, to rain a lot. It's also quite difficult to install on vertical walls compared to large solid blocks of foam. If you want both (solid and waterproof then its foam glas, but that's not as good an insulator and hence costs more.
McGyver - I suspect whoever made that comment was referring to "built in" fridges where many installers don't seem to realize you need to allow the fridge to have an air circulation and rely on the fact that you open the fridge several times a day allowing a gush of hot air to escape every time. Just my guess but I'm often amazed at what kitchen fitters do when it comes to equipment like this. Thus leaving it shut for a long time leads to a build up of heat.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
Also rockwool is good stuff, but not if it gets wet - this is the UK where it tends, normally, to rain a lot. It's also quite difficult to install on vertical walls compared to large solid blocks of foam. If you want both (solid and waterproof then its foam glas, but that's not as good an insulator and hence costs more.
McGyver - I suspect whoever made that comment was referring to "built in" fridges where many installers don't seem to realize you need to allow the fridge to have an air circulation and rely on the fact that you open the fridge several times a day allowing a gush of hot air to escape every time. Just my guess but I'm often amazed at what kitchen fitters do when it comes to equipment like this. Thus leaving it shut for a long time leads to a build up of heat.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
georgeverghese
Chemical
So it wouldnt be a suprise to hear that the natural gas supply and internal distribution piping in this 120 apartment tower block was another source of fuel for this fire, since it may have taken several minutes, if not hours, before some one manually isolated the mains supply valve.
it could have contributed... reminds me of the old comment, Why Brits drink warm beer... British Leyland makes refrigerators, having had several British sportcars while ageing.
Added: I was able to capture 62 *.pdf files with building information... looking at the suite layout, it appears the fridge is located approx 5' from a window that could be open and the stove was approx 3' from the same window. Nothing like a frying pan of oil left on an element. One of the first things I've checked to see if there is a stove with the switch still on.
Dik
Added: I was able to capture 62 *.pdf files with building information... looking at the suite layout, it appears the fridge is located approx 5' from a window that could be open and the stove was approx 3' from the same window. Nothing like a frying pan of oil left on an element. One of the first things I've checked to see if there is a stove with the switch still on.
Dik
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
I thought it was because 'Lucas' (the Prince of Darkness) made refrigerators...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
From the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea - SUSTAINABILITY AND ENERGY STATEMENT: Each flat is served by a 22mm natural gas supply originating from the kitchen riser. The single void flat has a pay-as-you-go gas meter under the kitchen sink. It is unclear as yet if this (meter) is the standard arrangement in all flats. - This suggests the flats were or were capable of being equipped with gas stoves.
The original heating features of the flats were hot water, radiant heated floors/ceilings & a small upright radiator. The discussion of the refurbishment of the flats included abandoning the aged/leak prone radiant heat system in the floor/ceiling and installing a larger upright water circulating radiator with a thermostatically controlled valve. The radiant heated floors/ceiling were identified as one of the factors contributing to heat build up in the structure. I may have read that the hot water supply and the radiant heated floors/ceilings were tied into together, though each flat had a hot water 'storage' tank.
The original heating features of the flats were hot water, radiant heated floors/ceilings & a small upright radiator. The discussion of the refurbishment of the flats included abandoning the aged/leak prone radiant heat system in the floor/ceiling and installing a larger upright water circulating radiator with a thermostatically controlled valve. The radiant heated floors/ceiling were identified as one of the factors contributing to heat build up in the structure. I may have read that the hot water supply and the radiant heated floors/ceilings were tied into together, though each flat had a hot water 'storage' tank.
Grenfell Tower firefighters put out fridge blaze 'and were just leaving when flats erupted in flames' Well, this is an interesting development. Since the Fire Dept can now inform us which unit sustained the refrigerator fire, it will be interesting to see where on the exterior of the structure the unit was located. Assuming, this was the cause of the cladding fire.
With respect to culpability of those who partook in the product selection, they may have been comfortably misled. There appears to be some poor classification work done by independent parties. Here is what looks to be a very offending document. If I understand correctly, the British Accreditation Service relied on the approval Reynobond received in France to facilitate their own approval certification. Reynobond has their European production facility in France. The certification is quite shoddy in the presentation of the PE material vs the FR material.
and Comparative Certifications
and Comparative Certifications
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