Apples & oranges & nectarines & blueberries.... 3

[leanne]

Is comparing medicine to law to engineering is an equivalent or fair comparison? I see these comaprisons in eng-tips frequently.

Let's consider the case of three engineering majors who start undergrad studies together & have formed a study group for the first few years of engineering basics: Alice, Annie, & Adam.

Alice decides to major in civil engineering. Annie decides to go to medical school so she majors in biomechanics engineering. Adam is determined to be a patent attorney & his undergrad major is electrical engineering.

After they split off into the junior & senior level coursework, Alice, Annie & Adam still meet to study & still bounce ideas off each other even while working on different courses.

Four years after they start engineering studies, they graduate. Alice has taken her FE & passed as has Adam. Annie has been accepted into medical school & Adam to law school. Alice is entering the work force with a civil engineering firm following graduation. Annie is taking the summer off. Adam is working for an attorney for the summer.

What do Annie, Alice & Adam need to do to meet the goals they have set?

For Alice to become an RPE:
[ul] [li] Graduate from an ABET accredited 4 year engineering program [li] Pass the EIT during senior year [li] Work under the supervision of an RPE with progressive responsibility for a minimum of 4 years of graduation or EIT/FE (whichever is later) [li] Pass the PE [/ul]
Minimal time to being a professional practicing RPE: 4 years of school plus 4 years of post-grad/EIT work experience assuming one passes the EIT/PE the first time taken as eligible


For Annie to become a doctor:
[ul] [li] Attain the pre-requisites pre-med coursework & credits (typically, an undergrad degree) [li] Pass the MCAT [li] Get accepted into medical school [li] Go to med school & survive the first two years [li] Pass the step one (2 days) of the United States Medical Licensing Examination [li] Continue with YR 3 of med school if USMLE step 1 was passed [li] Take step two of the United States Medical Licensing [li] Examination at the end of YR 3 or during YR 4 [li] Complete YR 4 of med school & graduate [li] Pass the medical board exams [li] Complete 2-6 years of residency program & during that period, take the final step of the USMLE [/ul]
Minimal time to being a professional practicing MD: 4 years of undergraduate school plus 4 years of medical school plus 2-6 years of residency assuming one passes all steps of the USMLE the first time

For Adam to become a lawyer:
[ul][li] Attain the pre-requisites credits & coursework (typically, undergrad degree) [li] Pass the LSAT [li] Get accepted into ABA approved law school [li] Go to law school & graduate from law school [li] Pass the BAR[/ul]
Minimal time to being a professional practicing JD: 4 years of undergraduate school plus 3 years of law school assuming one passes the bar the first time it is offered after graduation

Alice has 3-4 years of wage-earning career-building experience that Annie & Adam do not have during the same time period. Annie & Adam may surpass Alice quickly in wages - unless Annie goes to work as a UNICEF doctor & Adam gets his dream job with the US Patents Office.

Is it really fair to compare being an MD to being a JD to being an RPE?

 

[buzzp]

No its not and has been my point all along. Star for stating that point so well.

 

[electricpete]

I don’t think the question of equivalency can be answered without establishing the context or purpose of that question of equivalency.

In the context offered in thread731-62644 I think the comparison stands up for the purposes intended.

Specifically, to explore the area of whether an optional PE certification should mean something or absolutely nothing in evaluating candidates for exempt-industry jobs, the following analogy was offered:

Imagine that chiropractor license is optional in your state. There are two competing chiropractors across the street from each other. One has a license and one does not. You talk to the chiropractors and both seem cheerful and responsive and they both say they have been in business for 10 years. You talk to one or two clients each and no complaints and similar generally positive comments. Would you prefer the chiropractor with the license or simply toss a coin?

My answer:
Bearing in mind that a license requires passing a written exam, professional experience/character references (including from other certified chiropractors whose livelihood may be jeaopardized by false statements), and an absence of complaints filed with the licensing board… the license would definitely be a factor that would tend to tip the scales toward that candidate.

However, it has been made clear by buzz and company that they would not hesitate to reach for the coin instead.

Apples / oranges?…ok there are some differences in any analogy. (You might expend more time personally examining your job candidate than your chiropractor, focusing more on interview and resume).
The bottom line lesson shared in both cases is that refusing to acknowledge any value to the license amounts to closing your eyes to one of the only sources of information that comes to you independently from the candidate. Why would someone would prefer to ignore that type of information which is handed to them?

I think the real value in the chiropractor analogy is that it poses the question in a way that engineers can view somewhat objectively as outsiders, rather than blurred by some emotional cloud which seems to obscure logical thinking in the exempt industry PE license question.

 

[electricpete]

Is this the context you're talking about or have I missed some other apples/oranges thread?

 

[buzzp]

Geez Pete, your not going to let me off are you? I will correct myself now. I really just wanted to make light of the fact that chiropractics can practice their trade without a license. Period. I probably should not of brought it up in that particular discussion. In any case, the paragraph you quoted was not my exact words. If I screwed up, I admit it(hehe). I do not feel the need to go back and review that whole thread again so I will leave it at that.

When I read Leannes statement, I immediately thought of several other threads about respect, PE vs. Non-PE and a host of others where engineers are compared to doctors and lawyers. As pointed out by myself and Leanne in this thread, there should be no comparison, at least in some cases as I point out below. They have to go to school for much longer than a typical engineer.
If one wants to compare respect and salaries then this comparison should probably be done with a PhD and the doctor or lawyer.

 

[electricpete]

Fair enough. The only place I heard apples and oranges was in response to my chiropractor example so I felt the need to defend it.

I agree PE is nowhere near equivalent (in terms of the level of pay or respect afforded by the general public) to whatever the final license/cert is for doctor or lawyer. Did someone say it was? Must have missed that one.

 

[HamishMcTavish]

Hi Leanne,

Yet another difference between the US and UK! Could you enlighten me, why do you (the US) have the requirement for undergrad study and then medical school?

Looking at the flip side of the respect coin is there anything that doctors use in diagnosis or treatment that at some stage hasn't involved engineers?

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[leanne]

electricpete, my title in no way a reference to the other thread you linked. Indeed, I've slept a few times since my last foray into that particular thread & was offline for a few days as well. Has the term apples & oranges been copyrighted, trademarked, & licensed for that thread only, approved for use by only you & buzzp?

Hamish, I'm not familiar with the UK requirements for education & licensing of medical personnel. Please enlighten me...

Here, one attends school for 12 years (approximate ages 6-18), followed by 4 years of college/university (undergraduate studies), and lastly medical school (graduate studies).

 

[electricpete]

"...approved for use by only you & buzzp?"

Buzz' comment was "has been my point all along"

Unless Buzz has used that expression in some other thread related to PE's vs md's (or pseudo-md = chiropractor), I thought is was a conclusion that a reasonable person would come to. So I am not paranoid, I don't care what they say about me ;-)

Still at a loss to undestand exactly what is the proper context.

 

[HamishMcTavish]

Hi Leanne,

It appears that the difference is that the doctors in the US do an extra four years compared to the UK. We do school between approx 4 to approx 18 and then university. Medicine is a 5 year degree which includes various elective terms in hospitals and then their 'residency' programmes at hospitals start.

Is the undergrad degree that US doctors do medical related or is the medical school geared up to take applicants from any background.

If the latter is true then why don't Americans just go straight to medical school? 8 years of university must cost an absolute fortune!

I'm not out to give you a hard time, just confused (yet again) about the differences between US qualification and everywhere else...

Regards, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[FrenchCAD]

In France, we do school from 3 to 18, then university. Engineers go for a 5 years term while meds go for an 8 and lawyers go for a 5 years term. This is for general studies. We can add a 3 years term if we choose to this (8 years study for Engineering Doctors, 10/11 years for PhDs and 8 years for law doctors)

Studies fees depends on the school we go to.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

 

[leanne]

Hamish, the undergraduate degree for medical doctors in the US is typically referred to as "pre-med". One can major in any subject for a baccalaureate degree for "pre-med", however, certain required courses for medical school acceptance must have been taken in the course of undergraduate study.

Just to make sure we are on the same page (two countries separated by a common language & all that), a baccalaureate degree in the US is considered an undergraduate (often shortened to undergrad) degree while a master's degree & doctoral degree (PhD) are considered graduate levels - because one has already graduated with one college degree at minimum to be eligible to study at those levels.

Most engineering majors would have to take additional courses in biology & chemistry in order to apply for medical school - the exceptions would be the biomedical engineering majors. Chemical engineering majors would only need to add a few extra biological science courses. The current specific premedical course requirements for each of the 126 U.S. medical schools can be found in the latest edition of the Medical School Admissions Requirements (MSAR) handbook. Texas Medical School acceptance criteria can be reviewed at

http://www.utsystem.edu/tmdsas/admission_reqmts/crsereqmts.htm

How long are residencies in the UK? They are 2-6 years here in the US.

It is possible to complete medical school in less than 8 years. For example, Tulane University offers a combined baccalaureate-M.D. degree program for highly qualified students. It is a 7 year program. Students complete their first three years of undergraduate education, then enter the Tulane School of Medicine in their fourth year.

Yes, university can cost an absolute fortune here if one has no grant or scholarship funds available to them. Many US college graduates (regardless of major) leave school with a mountain of debt. Attending a private university or an out-of-state university is very expensive. One can get a degree fairly cost effectively by attending community or junior colleges for the first two years & transferring to a local four year state college/university for the final two years. State universities get money from state taxes & this effectively reduces the tuition cost for state residents. Students from other states pay higher tuition costs. Students at private universities pay much higher tuition than state university enrollees.

There are programs trying to change this - to encourage college for students who would not otherwise be able to attend due to costs. And, parents can now pre-pay tuition costs of college - most states with these programs require the student to attend a state school in the state where parent(s) is(are) resident(s).

I attended a community college & transferred to a private university. It was a major shock to the pocketbook at tuition time - even with an academic scholarship that paid half my tuition. I had a new student loan each semester which was paid off when the semester ended & tuition reimbursement was received. My employer reimbursed most of my tuition & the costs of my books at the end of the semester when I provided grade reports showing I'd passed the courses taken. But if I had it to do over, I'd have not worked & let my parents pay for me to go to school - like my sister did....

electricpete, I use that term a lot in daily discussion particularly when looking at metrics & such. To my knowledge until this thread, I've not used it in eng-tips nor noticed it being used. Should I have substituted bananas & cranberries for apples & oranges? Now, I'm making myself hungry....

 

[electricpete]

Still at a loss to understand the context. Who said a PE is the exact same thing as an MD or Law thingy?

And to which of buzz’ own comments (which thread, which date) was he referring when he said “has been my point all along”

 

[buzzp]

Now your going to make me find it aren't you? Ok Ill look and post them in here. From my limited memory, I believe lawyers/doctors were used in several threads. I think there was one entitled 'no respect for engineers' or similar. Ill look and post them. I know there were several comparisons made (maybe in the same thread).

 

[buzzp]

Ok, I have spent too much time looking already. Try these two threads 784-64519 and 765-61387. The lawyer/engineer comparison has been made several times by many different users. I think leanne has seen this two several times, hence her post.
I post way to many messages in here to track down which thread I argued against comparing lawyers and doctors. If you want to know that I stated it for whatever reason, search for it.

 

[electricpete]

Sorry, didn't mean to create any work. I am just disappointed that I can't get into the argument because I don't know what the argument is about ;-)

 

[buzzp]

I think the argument stems from the fact that several like to compare the respect, pay (maybe not pay), and license practices of the lawyer/doctor field with that of engineering.

 

[PSE]

electricpete and buzzp,

Don't tell me you are planning on starting an argument with each other about having arguments.

Contrasting "apples & oranges" can take place within an individual profession as well as between. Take engineering and look at the various types people can get into; for example.

Civil
Mechanical
Electrical
Nuclear
Aerospace
Structural
Environmental
Optical
Industrial
Manufacturing
Chemical

To name a few. How would you perceive the relative prestige and "worth" of any individual type. If you look at salary surveys, each discipline tends to command different ranges yet we all would tend to have similar levels of training.

Regards,

 

[FrenchCAD]

yes, but some requires you to get more involved in them, IMHO. I mean, look at nuclear engineers. I think they get one hell of a responsability in what they do, and so deserve salary, if not the respect (This, of course, is a little particular for Nuclear eng). An optical engineer takes less risks and have less responsibilities regarding to his neigbours/customers/whatever than a nuclear eng.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

 

[buzzp]

I like arguing with Pete. I generally learn something or teach something. Besides, hes the kind of guy that can argue without getting mad (at least his typing reflects this when he probably has my name on a dart board somewhere within his office ).
The highest pay from the university (engineering university only, state funded) I graduated from for new grads was in this order (we had all the disciplines you mention except nuclear and optical)
Chemical
Electrical
Mechanical
Industrial(mining)
Environmental
Manufacture
Civil
I know the top three above are in the right order, not certain about the rest. The avg starting pay went from 29K to 51k. This was in the mid nineties.
I think all disciplines can carry huge responsibilities (except civil, seriously I am just kidding)