Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9] 2

[dik]

thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]

Looks like Boeing is still having fun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[waross]

Boeing's board of directors must face a lawsuit from shareholders over two fatal crashes involving its 737 Max plane, a US judge has ruled.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

i don't actually think this is a good thing because it diverts cash away from the engineering

 

[waross]

I agree in the short term, but in the long term it may serve to divert MBAs away from engineering and that's a good thing.
Win or lose, it may send a powerful and important message to other boards of directors, CEOs and managers.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[dik]

With climate change, there may be a reduction in the number of aircraft needed...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Federal prosecutors are preparing to indict a former Boeing test pilot suspected of misleading aviation regulators over the safety issues blamed for two fatal 737 MAX crashes, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

Mark Forkner was the lead contact between the aviation giant and the United States' Federal Aviation Administration over how pilots should be trained to fly the planes, the Journal said.

According to documents published in early 2020, Forkner withheld details about the planes' faulty flight handling system known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS -- later blamed for both crashes -- from regulators

As expected they are going after the little people.

 

[Cool_Controls]

Link [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1046198912/boeing-test-pilot-indicted-737-max-mark-forkner[/url]

He better hope he has someone further up the food chain to flip on.

 

[thebard3]

The charges sound a little bit dubious to me-
'Forkner, 49, was charged with two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce and four counts of wire fraud.'
...but I'm not a lawyer.

More from DOJ-

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-boeing-737-max-chief-technical-pilot-indicted-fraud

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[dik]

It smacks of criminal negligence causing death and not fraud... I think there's something else at play, here.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Yes by doing him it gets the FAA off the hook

 

[Lou Scannon]

Furthermore, the term conspiracy comes to mind.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[AusG]

Do US DOJ press releases generally start with whole paragraphs of chest beating and hollering by the indicting agencies? Seems more theatrical than informative to me.

 

[RedSnake]

I found this dokument when I was looking around for some information.

Appendix G describes the design changes to the stabilizer trim system for the 737-7/-8/-9
(hereafter referred to as the 737 MAX), the applicable Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
and European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) regulatory requirements, and the method of
compliance to those requirements.

And as usual I got a bit annoyed, there is no visible date when this was done.
And I do understand that some information need to be excluded for one reason or another, but this is ridiculous!
You can't even se what there conclusion of this investigation was.

https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_reading_room/boeing_reading_room/media/stablizer_trim_system.pdf

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

https://avherald.com/h?article=4eeb7b36&opt=0

Doesn't sound fun.

 

[thebard3]

Bad management has momentum. You don't just stop it all at once.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[dik]

thanks Alistair... depends on what you call fun.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I am pretty sure its just a "normal" control issue.

As it was a delivery flight it will have had senior crew onboard. And when your brand new purchase does that to you...

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

[URL unfurl="true"]https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1635781492/tips/FAA_Oversight_of_American_Airlines_Final_Report_10-20-21_1_gugdms.pdf[/url]

Might be of interest to some

 

[dik]

I thought they had that capacity; was it taken away from them?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There meant to have it.

When the regulators went to the SMS systems they isolated themselves from the OEM's and airlines responsibility of it not being done correctly. Both were meant to ensure there own compliance using SMS, engineering is only one side of it flight ops have another parallel setup using sms. So like this pilot getting done they have someone in the middle to blame and the FAA and OEM/Airline just point at them when something goes wrong.

Then the regulator then audits the compliance systems. Which is the reason why I put in the MAX thread because that's what fell over letting MCAS through.

EASA has the same system.

EASA through sends auditors/inspectors out from different countries so there is not the local bias or ability of the OEM or airline to influence the inspectors. Basically a Spanish inspector is not interested about a cushy job in Denmark or Ireland. And they move them round regularly and its a different nationality every time. And when the inspection is done its auditing the local CAA more than anything else who do the normal inspections/audits.

I don't have the big picture with it all though not by a long shot. Just know that there is a small army of people in every airline keeping the information flowing into the system and closing events. And we do get pulled occasionally, a mate pilot got an hour in the office for doing a special reset under direction on the phone. It worked they came home. But there was no entry in the tech log because the tech didn't tell him 2. A month later the system picked it up that this was an event which should have been documented that had been done and there was no record of it. So interviews were done, manuals changed.

From the way I read it a tiger team (my own term for them) were parachuted in to check compliance and found the locals hadn't been doing there job. there was a big fuss while back with an airline taking in airframes and flying them for weeks and then it was discovered that they didn't have half the paperwork to be flown. It was a lot of airframes and a lot of flight hours and found by chance. I suspect these tiger teams were started because of that.