Boss lied 12

[UMRMST]

I just recently learned that my employer doubled billed a client. The client paid the bill and it was over $25,000. We discovered it after we had already deposited the check. My boss told me that the company could not pay it back because we simply do not have the money in our account at this time.

That was 18 months ago, the company just now told the client and cleared up the matter with them. It was a public project that they knew would be audited and were afraid the client would find out. I have lost all respect for my boss and he lied to client about when they discovered the error. I don’t want this to hurt my career or reputation but what do you do? Changing jobs is not an option since no one is hiring.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Bosses often have to do repugnant things.

The client has been made whole.

You have no proof that he was ever otherwise.

Pick a different battle to fight.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[photoengineer]

Did the boss actually double bill or did the client double pay? Most companies send an invoice and a statement and sometimes people will pay both the invoice and the statement instead of just the invoice.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[Ron]

Mike...well said.

UMRMST...my guess is that you work for a small business. Cash flow is always a battle. That overpayment probably allowed your boss to pay your salary. He probably spent months trying to work his cash flow to the point that he could pay it back, all the time worrying about how he could keep payroll going as well. It's a pretty good bet that your boss always intended to pay it back but had to do so on his time schedule, not theirs. If they had demanded payment earlier than he was capable, it might have caused layoffs or worse.

 

[zdas04]

I have nothing to add to Mike's post except to say that you'll be well served to stop looking for things that don't concern you to be worried about. If you were the one who found the double billing, your obligation stopped when you told you boss.

David

 

[dgowans]

UMRMST,

You say that you've lost respect for your boss and imply that you no longer want to work for him by mentioning changing jobs. What's stopping you from simply quitting? Could it be that you would find yourself in a negative cashflow situation? If so, your situation might just parallel the situation your boss found himself in when the extra payment came in (wanting to make it right but not being able to afford it).

Yes, in an ideal world, the double payment would have been refunded immediately. Big picture, the situation has by and large been resolved. If you feel that strongly about what happened, move on when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[BRGENG]

Wow, I can’t believe what I am reading here. You all think it is okay to keep your clients money for 18 months when they overpaid by $25,000. Cash flow problem or not, it is not your money to keep. It is funny how this post is in the “Professional Ethics in Engineering” forum and you apparently have none. Maybe you all need to pick up a copy of your state statues and refresh what you have forgot.

My advice would be to get out when you can. If your boss is willing to do this what else is he doing?

 

[EEinTexas]

If this was a public project I would guess it was funded by the State, County or City. Most likely the client would not want it made public that they overpaid your firm and no one noticed for 18 months.

I do agree with BRGENG that others think that this act is okay but I also agree with some of their comments that you did what you should have done. I would get out of there as quick as possible.

 

[BRGENG]

JAE had this on another post that was taken from a State Rule/Law book.

“5.5.4 The architect or professional engineer shall not engage in conduct involving fraud or wanton disregard of the rights of others.”

Lawyers would have to battle out if this is fraud or not but I doubt your boss would want this in front of a State Engineering Board.

 

[MikeHalloran]

The discussion was not about what's "right".

The discussion was about what's "best".

Too rarely are they the same.








Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[patprimmer]

I have to say this time I am on the oposite side to several people whose morals and ethics (if not politics) I normaly agree with.

To my mind stealing is stealing and must be unethical.

Knowingly keeping someone elses money that they did not owe you is stealing plain and simple.

Many very well respected mostly ethical companies steal in one way or another at times and virtually all employees fail to notice or let it slide as not their responsibility.

You are in no position to judge the overall situation without knowing all details of agreements and past dealings.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[photoengineer]

BRGENG (and everyone else)

I would encourage you to review the meeting minutes of the state licensing board and see what kinds of things they investigate and what kinds of things they don't.

In Washington State, they do not get involved in tiffs between a company and a client. Everytime somebody files a complaint over billing or other money matters, they close the case without investigation saying the subject matter does not fall under the jursidction of the board.

Fraud over things related to engineering would be of significant interest to the board. For example, if an engineer did an onsite mechanical evaluation of a weld and forged the documents saying the weld was good when it wasn't would be of serious interest.

Matters relating to finance, billing, or contracts are of no interest to the board as the boad doesn't regulate those issues.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[rowingengineer]

I’m on the fence, yep it is easy to say they should have paid the money back, however in my time, I have tried to pay money back in a situation like this and it can take up to 3 years. You may be sitting there thinking how can this be? Well it all depends on the length of the project, if the project has timed finance dealings (not the right term but I think you get my drift) by contract (say a wind farm project running over four years) and let say they double paid without prompting, we often can’t pay it back until the next dealing is due. They have these timed dealing so that money for extra’s ect can be handled at once, because oftent they will be applying for extra money from the funding source and only wnat to do it once or twice. We do however pay it back including the interest gained but do change a handling fee.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

 

[UMRMST]

So people asked for additional information and I should have included this extra information. This was the first bill in the project that the client overpaid. After we discovered they overpaid the original amount we continue to bill them the remaining portion of the contract which was approximately $60,000.

So after we billed them $25,000 they paid us $50,000 then we billed them another $60,000 which they paid in full. Knowing this extra bit how do you feel?

 

[photoengineer]

As said above, this really is an accounting issue rather than an engineering issue. I don't claim to understand accounting and I'm licensed only to dispense advice in areas that I understand. What I do understand is accounting rules are complicated and not straightforward.

What I do understand is you carefully rephrased it on how you described it this time. The original post was "the boss double billed the client" and the second post says "the client overpaid". The wording is very different among the two posts. The first indicates an intentionally sending out a invoice a second time to get money, the second way indicates the client screwed up.

I do know that mispresenting the facts is unethical and it sounds like the facts may have been mispresented in your original post. In that case, you may have done something unethical.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[hokie66]

photoengineer smells a rat, and I tend to agree. I just wonder, UMRMAST, how and when you found out about this. Your original post said you recently found out, but now the time line seems different. The whole thing may be due to company accounting practices. In many consulting practices, the project engineer is involved in the invoicing, but not in the collections. Invoices go out for the current work with no consideration of the status of payments.

 

[SNORGY]

I do agree with the statement:

"Pick a different battle to fight."

But...seriously...for $25,000.00 (US / CDN or otherwise)...

I would have gone to the bank and drawn on a line of credit and paid the client back immediately. Of course, if the company is in a state coincident with:

(1) Not enough resources to pay $25,000.00;
(2) Not enough cash flow to make payroll if they have to pay $25,000.00;
(3) Not enough credit to obtain $25,000.00 if they need it,

then it's probably time to leave.

There is no other correct answer. A cheque for $25,000.00 to the client was due and payable within - at most - one business day of the error having been discovered.

I don't care what any applicable law says.



Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[jmw]

The question is, when was the overpayment detected?
The way originally posted the client was double billed. It then seems the client was billed $25k and paid $50k.
They made a mistake.
Now, what was 18 motnths ago? 18 months agao it happened or 18 months ago it happened and wasn't corrected.
That doesn't sound right.
If the client bouble paid (rather than double billed) and the error was immediately detected then there should have been no problem repaying the amount.
However, it sounds liuke the problem wasn't discovered until some time later at which point there is a cash flow problem.
The next question is, when was the client aware of the double payment?
What discussions took place between the client and your boss?

So who discovered the problem?
The client or yor boss?

OK, last point, cash flow problems are not uncommon but one approach is to lay people off. So, the boss could lay people off but how many to pay the money back? Or he may discuss teh problem with the client and reach an understanding.
What you haven't told us is how much you know of what went on between the parties.
I assume frrom your posts that you were not originally or officially in this discussion loop and infer you found out by chance.
I would suggest there is a chance you may not know the whole story? Let's not condemn the man without the full story.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[brandoncdg]

I could easily see this happening if the accounting is bad in some way. If the owner is involved in any way it's possible to overlook things like that. I don't think an extra $25,000 in a bank account for any size company is that much money to draw a red flag.

Let me put it another way. Trying to scam a government job would basically put you on some kind of blacklist. There is no way intentionally taking money would get you repeat business and next your name will get dragged through the mud.

Over this direction a lot of people talk (between private and public), and people know what companies are shady. If you really feel your boss did this purposely and you don't like their ethics and will cause you mental harm in some way, you should quit.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[JStephen]

The details really don't matter here except to you. Regardless of what we think, you're at a point where you feel your boss's integrity is lacking. The solution is to find a different boss. That may take some time, so in the meantime, get your professional life in order where you can change jobs when the opportunity arises. It doesn't look like your boss is actually doing anything criminal, and if anyone has grounds to complain on the money deal, it'd be the customer, not you.

Something else to keep in mind is that it is easy to be missing some of the details on a case like this. One 2-minute telephone conversation that you weren't aware of could make a 180 degree difference in how everyone views it.