Hard Rock Hotel under construction in New Orleans collapses... 119

[bigpolar]

>So what do you think will happen for failure like this? Can you use what's left? Abandon the idea and start fresh?

They will probably evaluate the existing design and if it is determined to be inadequate, attempt to create a new design to work on top of the existing transfer slab, since the pictures appear to show it still in good shape. Depending on the assumed loads for the current design, the new design may be able to use the existing column spacing, and may need to remove some of the planned upper floors if the slab wasn't designed for the loads calculated by the new analysis.

Or, if it is determined that the final design was adequate, but construction means and methods are at fault, they may be able to rebuild the current design. New safeguards or methods would need to be used to allow safe construction. That seems unlikely, given the comments in this thread. However, it may be possible that the full drawing set includes more information and details that would show the design to be adequate.

 

[dold]

JAE,

Someone posted the link but deleted it. It's a public website, not behind a login or anything, and these are effectively public records. Look for "HRH_1031_CANAL_STRUCTURAL_FULL_SET_6.8.2018....". These are SEALED permit drawings - nothing on the drawings saying 'not for construction', etc. You'll notice in some of the inspection pictures (see below) it looks like there were at least two revisions, at least to the foundation drawings...

For what it's worth, somebody could file a FOIA request with the city to get the final drawings. But each municipality has different rules for giving out drawings. I know in a lot of cities in California, if the documents have a professional's seal on it, one must obtain written consent via affidavit first from the owner of the building, and then typically the muni will make an attempt to get written approval from the professional who sealed the docs, before releasing the docs. Copyrights or something... I've never FOIA'd in NOLA though. Plus this is now tied up in an investigation i'm sure, so that might foul up the FOIA stuff for the time being.

[URL unfurl="true"]https://onestopapp.nola.gov/Documents.aspx?ObjLabel=Permit&ID=462842[/url]

 

[IRstuff]

Worse than that, the requester has to get written permission from the author of the drawings before release, and then pay the city to get the copies.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Although from a generic news station, I was surprised at the info in this video given the title was something about them installing the pool basin just a few hours before the collapse. To whit, I doubt this basin install had anything to do with it, but the video talks about the contractor's son being indicted for fraud earlier, etc. Might be worth a watch for 3 minutes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgOF3NtAmU8

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[NOLAscience]

So what do you think will happen for failure like this? Can you use what's left? Abandon the idea and start fresh?

New buildings should not be built with parking garages, as self-driving cars will greatly reduce the need for parking within a decade or so and the preference for Uber-ing to the Quarter means there are fewer parkers there for day trips now. If only there was a secure "Park and Ride" with a shuttle service for overnight guests, we could eliminate all of that ugly, wasted parking space in the Quarter and surrounding areas. In the meantime, though, I know that parking garages are a great revenue generator, with nearly 100% occupancy, even when the retail spaces struggle for stores and shoppers. Who shops at retail today?

And,

Although from a generic news station...

Generic news station? That's from WWL-TV in New Orleans.

 

[JAE]

OK - looking at the framing plan there is an oddity in it - not sure if it could be considered a cause, at all, of the collapse.
But running down the length of the building - right at the interface between the remaining structure and the collapsed structure is a long corridor made up only of the deck-slab.
This deck slab is rotated 90 degrees from all the other deck slabs in the building.
What's more, there are NO structural steel beams crossing this long corridor at all.
I would never do this. I always want to connect my steel throughout a frame and not rely on 2 1/2" of WWF reinforced concrete to hold the structure together.

 

[bones206]

JAE, could that strip of decking have acted as a fuse that prevented the remainder of the building from collapsing?

 

[bones206]

"The one thing I find hard to understand is the collapse started at the rear of the building (by Rampart and Iberville streets) but it wound up, you had collapsed slabs all the way on the front end of the build which is 300 feet away (on Canal Street)," he said. "So I don’t know how that progression worked like that. I guess that’s part of what the investigation is going to reveal.”

Link

If the building was essentially perforated down the middle by that strip of decking without framing, that could possibly explain how the collapse seemed to wrap around the front from one end to the other without pulling down the rest of the building with it.

 

[JAE]

Yes that is most likely true.

 

[IceNine]

The collapsed area JAE highlighted had a series of W16x26 transfer girders at the 15th floor supporting the W6x20 columns above (which support 3 additional levels).

 

[structuralengr89]

Dold...You get a star for your W10x19 girder comment!

Let's hope those plans you linked which are sealed and do not state NFC are not what was used for construction!!!

 

[sandman21]

These drawings are a mess they have a HSS6x3x3/8" girder supporting a W21x444, grid F and 31 15th level. Along with grid 39 PP to YY

They are stamped and signed with permit set document stamp on them.

 

[MrHershey]

Rabbit12, I have likewise started to wonder if this small local firm has support from a bigger out-of-state firm. Or, even a bigger in-state firm. Haeslip used to work for a bigger firm in the same building as his current office.

I'd be more critical of the qualifications and capabilities than the size of the firm. A firm that size should have no problem with a job like this if they know what they're doing. I have personally seen one or two man shops crank out designs larger and more complex than this. But those one or two guys knew their stuff.

 

[JAE]

I think it is a waste of time here to talk about the size of their firm - agree 100% with MrHershey.
In fact I get a bit tired when there is a common perceived (but wrong) thought that only large firms can do large structural projects.

The key is the actual qualifications of the engineers, not the number of minions surrounding them.

 

[spieng89]

I think everyone should put down the knives for a bit. There are some bad errors in these drawings and details that most wouldn't do e.g. W6 columns (would be better off using a tube section), small HSS girders, excessive deck spans, etc. But let's not act like we're putting out perfect drawings on a daily. Let's hope some of these "assumed" and real errors were caught in submittal stage or at least that the numbers actually work out even if the constructabiliy doesn't make sense. It could be your name in the news next, let's give them the benefit of doubt until gross negligence is proven.

 

[Tomfh]

Agree spieng. This pile on is a bit distasteful. As are the comments that only big firms can do 10 storey buildings.

 

[Tomfh]

I know that in Revit, many times we populate the framing with small size beams - simply as initial placeholders.

We do this too. I don’t like the practice at all.

 

[PEinVA]

We do this too. I don’t like the practice at all.

Maybe just use like W36x330 so the GC will blow a gasket during pricing to bring it to your attention instead of trying to build 10 floors out of W10 beams/girders and W6 columns.

RC

 

[JAE]

Hmmm. I didn’t see any knives - only comments pertaining to sealed and signed drawings based on our engineering knowledge and experience. No one here is or has persecuted the EOR or claimed to know why this building fell down.

This forum and threads like this are open to discussions about failures so we all can learn from mistakes... be they our mistakes or others.

 

[Rabbit12]

I agree JAE. I don't think anyone has placed the blame on the EOR or the contractor.

I think everyone agrees the permit plans sure raise a lot of questions about the design. The question is whether there was significant changes from permit to IFC drawings.