Hurricanes, Sea water, Corrosion and EV's 13

[enginesrus]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/

It appears Li Ion battery's don't do so good with sea water, corrosion, and hurricane's. Many other threads on the net explain the tons of water
that the fire people need to attempt to extinguish the fires. I would like to see the pollution figures of an EV fire.
And on topic the pollution figures of all operations required to manufacture those battery's.

 

[dik]

Sorry Hokie... the future is very uncertain. There could be some horrendous changes coming. We'd like to think not, but it's very uncertain.

-----*****-----

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[hokie66]

We all know that things change. Always have, always will. But you come across as Chicken Little.

 

[SnTMan]

"...the future is uncertain and the end is always near..."

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[enginesrus]

dik, electric cars have a huge carbon foot print. And besides per the climate thread carbon is nothing to worry about, it is all very natural.
Any horrendous changes coming are by design.

 

[BrianPetersen]

Wrong, but whatever.

 

[phamENG]

Reading these 'non-technical' forums is often a lot like having two TVs on, one with MSNBC and the with Fox. Each side is always saying the same thing, and a lot like the TV's, neither one is listening to the other...

 

[Brian Malone]

Unfortunately, people aren't purchasing transportation based on the carbon footprint. This will likely change.

Not a chance. People generally do not care. Maybe 1% of the population actually has a strong opinion, and maybe 1% of that 1% is willing to compromise their quality of life to reduce their carbon footprint.

Many people really do not have a choice on the vehicle they will purchase. Until electric vehicles / hybrids and the cost for any associated in-home charging systems drop in price, e-vehicles are for the most part only an option for a very, very small segment of the population. The average person who is living paycheck to paycheck cannot afford the lowest end e-vehicle and a charging system. The government rebates are purely enticement for those with disposable income. I doubt those with less income / wealth have less interest in the environment, they just have to choose what is possible based on the money they have - willingness to compromise is probably more likely just a necessary choice of what is affordable.

Edit - actually my comment on this is not quite clearly stated:
1. There are those who have limited income and cannot buy a new vehicle of any type and must buy used. The used e-vehicle market is virtually non-existent and untested. Those with little income will not risk their money on a vehicle that may put them in a difficult situation for maintenance (used vehicles are statistically more repair prone) or charging.
2. Many more people than statistics may indicate are living on tight finances, and they will look at the difficulties of charging an e-vehicle and the general high price of the vehicle and choose not to risk their money on a vehicle that may put them in a difficult situation for charging.

 

[Brian Malone]

But to get back closer to the OP line of questioning:

1. Are e-vehicles more prone to fires after being submerged in saltwater?
2. Aren't the battery packs for e-vehicles required to be IP67 which would require submersion to 1.5 meters for a least 1/2 hour? In my experience with products that were designed for submersion requirements, the true capability was greatly more than the standard because the effort the meet the standard required materials and designs that intrinsically produced capability beyond the standard minimum.
3. Are e-vehicles more prone to fires than a combustion engine car after being submerged in saltwater. I don't believe the electrical wiring systems in combustion engine cars are capable of handling saltwater any better than the wiring in an e-vehicle. The e-vehicle battery and motors are probably not the weak links - they are sealed and the venting is designed to prevent build-up of internal pressure and have check valves to prevent back flow.

Edit - Maybe I have found some info for my question on if e-vehicles are more prone to fire after being submerged in saltwater.

https://www.westernjournal.com/fl-f...-hurricane-ian-tesla-catches-fire-salt-water/

Post-submergence corrosion may be more of fault condition that has not been fully vetted or addressed . . .

 

[TugboatEng]

Perspective is important. IP67 is tested on new products. Anybody that works in the field knows that the IP rating diminishes rapidly with age for most products. As someone that works in the marine industry I refuse to use off the shelf IP rated products for exposed applications. NEMA has a much more robust standard but is not favored due to cost. NEMA has it's weaknesses as well. There are quite a few unlisted best practices that need to be used to get reasonable life expectancy.

We do use a IP rated floodlight on our vessels and it is an outstanding product. It uses Gore vents on the enclosure which is relatively unheard of in the marine industry. Automotive has been using them for decades.

 

[JohnRBaker]

The industry that I spent 14 years working as a machine designer, commercial bakery equipment, we had to use NEMA 12-rated electrical enclosures and conduit boxes as well as explosion-proof, NEMA-rated motors. Explosions resulting from flour dust can be devastating. One of the senior engineers I worked with, when he was younger was helping to install some flour handling machinery in a bakery when there was an explosion that killed two workers and burned one side if his body and face, scaring him for life.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

Marine Duty used to mean NEMA 13 (essentially the same as 12, 13 is oil tight 12 is dust tight). Our operating environment has lots of oil mist and soot. NEMA 4 enclosures are common on the exterior but they have lots of problems with crevice corrosion. The explosion proof stuff is really best for deck equipment in marine because it has thick walls, big fasteners, and takes paint well regardless of corrosion resistance.

 

[Brian Malone]

Even though e-vehicles have Li-ion batteries, this NTSB guidance lists water as the preferred material for e-vehicle fires, reference page 38. The control of thermal runaway appears to be more of a concern than a chemical reaction of lithium and water. The document even mentions saltwater submersion as a method of battery discharge, reference page 8.

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SR2001.pdf

Edit
NFPA maintains a site with emergency response guides for many e-vehicles.

https://www.nfpa.org/Training-and-E...cle-Safety-Training/Emergency-Response-Guides

Glancing at a few of them, water is the recommended fire suppression material - thermal runaway is the main hazard, not lithium/water reaction. Tesla ERG for example, reference page 23:

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...esla/Model_3_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.ashx

 

[TugboatEng]

They can put saltwater immersion tanks next to the brake failure gravel pits.

 

[Factoter]

Thermal runaways, generic causes from the inter-webs:

“It has been observed that the majority of fires are caused by:
Temperature control.
Inherent cell defects.
Damage during construction.
Operation of the BESS outside of prescribed parameters (for example, temperature, charge rate, and state of charge).
Damage due to operational negligence.”

Thermal runaway and Florida environment may be associated? Remembering now that the Takata airbag recall was also a Florida problem. High temps and humidity.

 

[Factoter]

Gruber Motors: “(edit) Pete Gruber had already warned that Teslas in coastal areas could face battery pack corrosion issues, but we now know this may only accelerate the problem.”

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-problem-with-comprehensive-video-199337.html

Looking at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_cobalt_aluminium_oxides

Thermal runaway on Li-NCA starts as low as 149*f

 

[BrianPetersen]

Thermal runaway on Li-NCA starts as low as 149*f (65°C)

... "if the battery was previously overcharged." Otherwise, "When a typical NCA battery is heated to 180 °C, it will thermally run away."

Battery charge management and thermal management are important safety systems to avoid this happening, and all modern EVs have this.

 

[Factoter]

[/Battery charge management and thermal management are important safety systems to avoid this happening, and all modern EVs have this. )

Well said, and apparently Tesla has set the bar for its pack designs and management systems. That being said, there are now on the road damaged cells, albeit with warning lights and limited range, and cars that bricked and left out to flood. Because there’s a known water ingress problem, as others assumed, and series batteries are prone to overcharge, I think that salt water flooding with or without high ambient temps will lead to runaway in certain vehicles.

 

[CWB1]

Battery charge management and thermal management are important safety systems to avoid this happening, and all modern EVs have this.

Overcharging events are considered unavoidable in both battery and charging system design for anything with a battery and charging system in the first world.

 

[BrianPetersen]

... and what is the basis for that statement?

The BMS in modern EVs won't allow overcharging, and in a series-cell arrangement (all of them), each step is monitored, so that if one cell fills up first, it still won't overcharge that cell. This isn't like connecting a dumb old skool battery charger (power supply) to a dumb old skool battery.

If one cell in the series chain reaches target voltage, it isolates and stops further charging of that cell. When they all reach target voltage, charging stops.

Component failures? I would expect that automotive BMS designs are FMEA'ed to the nth degree.

 

[dik]

and for tiny recargeable batteries, the cheap chargers stop charging all batteries when the first battery reaches its max capacity. Good chargers monitor each battery and some chargers have the ability to 'refresh' and bring all batteries up to their 'actual' maximum capacity. My Powerex charger does this for AAs and AAAs.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik