I-195 Bridge Closure, R.I. 10

[Sym P. le]

"Critical failure" closes I-195 west on Washington Bridge in Providence, Rhode Island - CBS

Casey Jones - Youtube has already done a review - Why does it take three days to close a bridge?

The failed anchor rod is part of the center span. I don't know which pier is involved. There is an east and west span so it will be interesting to learn if deterioration is similar on the alternate span.

Google Street View

 

[3DDave]

It's been salted. And salted. And salted.

I keep watching South Main Auto on YouTube. He's up in New York but that's close. His experience seems to be that cars there last 5 years due to the salt.

Near me a sidewalk was poured in-place and partly cantilevered off the edge of a vehicle bridge and anchored with steel rod/rebar. This made for a small crevice under the sidewalk, which also served as the curb and the roadway. After 10-15 years the rod(s) that was exposed in that crevice was essentially sawed through by the salt and water. Then entire sidewalk came loose (60 foot+ span) onto the highway below; fortunately at night with only a few cars nearby. The images showed the rebar was flush with the pavement, like someone took an angle grinder to smooth it. If one did not know it was supposed to there the only other clue was the broad stain of rust leading off under where the sidewalk used to be and down the side of the road.

Big question - why are so many bridges in rust areas not designed with obvious runoff paths on all structural members. I see i-beams with sharp corners at the flanges to the webs and dirt just piles up on there, trapping moisture and salt. Almost always when I see a rust hole it's right there. I know the plan is for the gutters and drains to work, but they don't seem to work nearly long enough.

 

[pellucidar]

It's been salted. And salted. And salted.

I keep watching South Main Auto on YouTube. He's up in New York but that's close. His experience seems to be that cars there last 5 years due to the salt.

We had one car rust out after 7 years, but in most cases they last much longer despite the aggressive salting. It would be an economic issue if they only lasted 5 years.

I should note, however, that the weather is unusually mild in coastal RI, including West Providence, and the quantity of salt required is not what you would expect if you live inland elsewhere in the Northeast.

 

[3DDave]

He gets a lot of American made pickup trucks.

 

[dik]

When the Datsuns first came out they lasted about half that time... they've really improved.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[MTNClimber]

The RIDOT Director states the bridge needs to be torn down and replaced. Their preliminary schedule indicates the replacement bridge will be open for traffic sometime between the spring and fall of 2026. Estimated costs between $200-$300M for demo and construction. The budget seems around right, but the schedule seems optimistic.

 

[Sym P. le]

cannot viably be repaired ...

No shick Poindexter. What will it cost to repair the integrity of R.I. governance?

 

[dik]

It's like the schtick of the used car salesman, "It's about integrity, and once you can fake integrity, you have it made."

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[FacEngrPE]

The final report is issued - see this link.

https://www.dot.ri.gov/projects/Was...ngton_Bridge_Structural_Analysis_Findings.pdf

A summary report is attached, which includes a proposed schedule of events estimated by RI DOT. Substantial completion is projected to be by summer 2026

 

[Eufalconimorph]

The enthalpy of fusion of water is 333.55J/kg. US lanes are at least 3.7m wide, fresh snow density generally varies between 50 and 200 kg/m^3. Ignoring shoulders, that means 620e3J/km/lane/cm_snow to 2.5e6J/km/lane/cm_snow. Equivalently 0.17kWh/km/lane/cm_snow, 0.69kWh/km/lane/cm_snow. According to this Rhode Island has 12,664 miles of road lanes, i.e. 20,301km. So per cm snow fall, that means about 3500-14000kWh per cm snow fall. A brief search shows the average annual snowfall for RI varies from 50-100cm or so, thus with an average industrial/commercial electricity price of $0.197/kWh between $35,000 and $276,000 annually. I couldn't quickly find average annual salt use for the state, but this Newport Daily News article says that in the 2017-2018 winter with above average snowfall they used 153269 tons of salt, and it seems to cost somewhere between $58-$60 per ton. So very roughly between $8,500,000 to $9,000,000 per year in salt use.

Of course heating elements make a lot of other road maintenance more difficult, and there's a big installation cost, but I could certainly see them being worthwhile for bridges & areas near bridges. Obviously it'd need a much more in-depth study than spending 20 minutes searching for rough average numbers on the internet & doing very back-of-the-napkin calculations.

 

[MTNClimber]

$35k to heat all of the 12,664 miles of roadway? Come on. That doesn’t pass the straight-face test and looks like an output from ChatGPT.

First, we would have to heat the roads more than just when it snows. It often rains in the day and freezes at night.

Good luck keeping them operational when the utility company trenches in a utility within five years of installing the heating elements.

I’m sure the paving companies will love milling through heating wires when they go to replace the roads.

I’m sure there are more logistical issues but I’m baffled by someone saying it could cost so little to heat so much area.

 

[Murph 9000]

I'm not sure, but I think the error is in thinking you can heat just the snow. You have to heat the entire surface of the bridge/road, with heat constantly being lost into the structure and environment. Certainly, $276k (taking the upper bound from the post above) is going to be orders of magnitude below the cost of heating 12,000 miles of highways. The Hammersmith flyover in London was reported to have an equivalent annual operating cost of around £100,000 in today's money for its original heating system, and that's just 2000 feet of elevated highway. Ok, that was built in 1961, so it's possible that a more efficient heating system could be built today, but I don't believe many orders of magnitude of efficiency could be found.

 

[Eufalconimorph]

Sure, I'd expect a *lot* higher costs in practice. I only calculated the energy needed to *melt* that much snow, not to prevent ice forming when it's cold out, or to heat the road itself, or the cost of the heating elements themselves, or the cost of replacing the elements every time a road crew has to dig up the surface, or the costs of replacing the elements every time a pothole forms & breaks a connection... Just the costs of melting the snow. I expect the other costs to dominate by a large margin. But for the bridges themselves, it might make sense. The cost of replacing a bridge is quite large, if they could reduce the overall maintenance costs by eliminating salt use on the bridges by enough of a margin it could be worthwhile. But, again, needs a lot more than "first result on an internet search" numbers and much more detailed calculations than what fit in my previous post.

 

[SWComposites]

Right, good luck getting the salt truck drivers in a blizzard to turn off the salt sprayer as they go over every bridge. Not going to happen.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Virginia is making extensive use of salt brine application before storms, which significantly reduces the quantity of salt applied (reported to be 75% reduction). The resulting driving surface following our typical storms is as good as when salt / abrasive mix was used before and during storms.

https://www.caryinstitute.org/news-...hway-departments-and-winter-maintenance-staff

 

[Overvoltage]

It's been used in the midwest for several years. And yes, it works pretty well for light snows or keeping the surface from glazing. Once you get a significant amount, however, its impacts begin to diminish (although it is still helpful in reducing the "sticking" of the snow to the road surface). Overall a pretty cost effective and useful technique.

 

[MTNClimber]

RI lawmakers are trying to change the rules of the game. From our local ACEC chapter:

“Yesterday House Bill 8318, An Act Relating to courts and civil procedure - procedure generally -- Causes of Action was introduced by two House Representatives Dawson and Boylan both from the East Bay. The bill raises serious concerns for the architecture/engineering/contractor community. This bill seeks to extend the duration of the statutory repose period for all claims involving the Washington Bridge, from the current ten (10) year period from the date of substantial completion to 10 years from the date of discovery. Passage of this bill would significantly enlarge the time period within which a claim may be brought by a potential litigant, causing a significant increase in insurance costs and project costs for public and private projects.

The purpose of the statute of repose is to encourage prompt litigation and adjudication of claims. By compelling a person to exercise their right to seek compensation for damages allegedly caused by a contractor or design professional, various issues are avoided, such as defective memories, lost records, unavailability of witnesses, and possible fraudulent claims. By enlarging the time period within which a claim can be brought (here from 10 years to close to 20 years), these issues/challenges would be significantly exacerbated.”

 

[3DDave]

https://legiscan.com/RI/text/H8318/2024

That seems insane. Maybe my ability to read is broken but it sounds like the current status is 10 years from substantial completion and the proposal is to make it an infinite time until someone notices a defect and then, after noticing the defect, they have 10 years.

I can foresee the insurance industry refusing to cover any civil engineering projects or civil engineers working in or for Rhode Island starting as soon as this passes.

I predict that there will be a flurry of calls and visits to the state government representatives by construction and insurance industry lobbyists to encourage an understanding of what would happen.

 

[MTNClimber]

Contractors and engineers are already balking at pursuing the bridge replacement due to the current spotlight and scrutiny. Now the lawmakers think it's a good idea to increase the risk to take on the job. This will only cost the taxpayers more for the increased risk and insurance premiums.

 

[FacEngrPE]

To Decrease the risk, fund better owners supervision (RI DOT) and then periodically audit to make sure the supervision is effective. Trying to do this on the cheap gets very expensive.

 

[MTNClimber]

No bids have been submitted to build the new westbound Washington Bridge.

I can't believe how ridiculous this has gotten.