Lazy designers/drafters 16

[JsTyLz]

I am not saying all designers or drafters are lazy, but for me it is like pulling teeth to get one of them to work. Of course I always get the project done in time, and in all honesty I generally expect more out of people than what they do themselves. I am just wondering how many other engineers out there have designers/drafters working for them and what they do/did to get them to work. I am thinking about going to my boss, but I think I should address the issue with this person first too. I guess this is half venting and half curiosity if other people go through this stuff too.

Stylz signing off

 

[TheTick]

Is this designer as big as a house and twice as smart? Does his name rhyme with "Ragwell"?

 

[Sprocket59]

"Your not exactly attracting the top talent pool with that."

I believe that money attracts everyone, not just the good workers. How simple life would be if we could measure someone's competence by their paycheck. Not all unworthy people get weeded out. Some get promoted or become leaders.

 

[zuccus]

PEDARRIN2,

It is my industry and location, but let me ask you this? If the good guys in your industry making $14/hr are seeing guys in my industry making twice that much, where do you think they are going to end up sooner or later.

Houston's oil & gas, petrochem, and industrial markets are booming so big right now it is tough to hire good people for a reasonable rate.

In reality I am in a parallel market to the HVAC industry and I am having to compete with the big oil companies for desingers and drafters. I try to only hire good talent. Bad talent doesn't last long with me.

This may open up a whole can of worms or maybe another thread, but here it is anyways.

Our good designers get paid more than any of our engineers and let me tell you why.
For our business, they are worth more.

Zuccus

 

[ctopher]

Different industries have different terminology/definitions for "Designer". A designer can be at a draftsman level at one company, then a engineer's level at another.
I know designers that fully capable of doing an engineer's job, but don't want the position for various reasons.
I know draftsmen that have been doing drafting for 30+ years. They are the best at what they do, but can't use CAD or do some engineering work at all.
Most of drafters/designers that I have seen that fit the "lazy" category, fall within the late 20'- mid 30's age group.
They are usually the ones that have no motivation to succeed. They learn the trade for a few years, want the better pay, get frustrated, depressed, then give up.
This is why some companies have dropped drafter/designer positions and given the work to engineer's or outsourced the work.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

 

[ewh]

In the aerospace industry, for $14/hr, you are going to be looking to fill positions for a looong time, or are going to have to settle for people that can't really cut it. With contract rates at $40/hr plus (mostly plus), it is no surprise that good talent is so hard to find for so little money.

 

[ewh]

In Houston, $25.00/hr was pretty much the minimum for a Unigraphics drafter in the oil industry five years ago.

 

[KENAT]

You know, I just remembered a problem I had with one mediocre designer/draftsman.

I already had a CAD drawing of the item.

I just wanted him to copy it, give it a new number change some of the marking to match the new part number and description and remove some marking that said “not for flight” that was about it.

I figured an hour, 2 at most as he wasn’t very familiar with our CAD package yet.

After he’d had it a couple of days I went over and asked if it was done. He said nearly.

Instead of making the changes simply he’d decided to put all the notes and marking in an embedded Word file, change the orientation of the main view 90 degrees, which meant the marking was in the wrong place, and various other steps to screw up the drawing.

This wasn’t exactly laziness as it took effort to do all that work!


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[JsTyLz]

Maybe he was too lazy, because he would rather waste time on doing a project his way. That simple 2 hour should have been done, and then he would have to do more work... but if he stayed on that project, no more work.

 

[11echo]

SO ...the designers/and drafters are lazy huh!?? ...Could it be they are tired of redoing the same thing over and over again because the engineers can't think something through and have to "see it" on paper before they can make a decision? I'm an old board guy, had an engineer confess to me that he doesn't think things through like he use to, because AutoCAD makes it so easy for the designer/draftsman to "play" with the dwg.s! He use to feel guilty when he called for changes in the board days because it took more of an effort.
However, with the "modern" day teaching curriculum all you need to do is learn a "AutoCAD or 3D program" and you’re a draftsman or a designer!!! ...Just ask the computer program salesmen!!

 

[dvd]

Wow, JsTyLz you sound like a real piece of work. I hope you can find somebody at work to eat lunch with you. Of course, unless you have prepared your own lunch it probably wasn't done right either.

 

[BJC]

Just some thoughs.
20 % of your people take 80% of your time. You can get rid of the 20 % and another 20% will majically appear to take their place.

If a JsTyLz came to me bitching about someone I automatically put him on the usual suspects list. In my experience he's very likely to be part of the problem. You have to look cases like this over very clsoely. If good designers are harder to get than good engineers the one to go may not be the designer person. I am not even sure India has a rigid case system any more, I know we don't.

 

[JsTyLz]

I think too many people are reading the title and not the posts. I confessed that I started the thread as a general statement, but in actuality I was talking about one person. I was wondering how other people dealt with the same situation. When I posted designer/drafter, I was unsure what "your" company titled them as.

Anyways... it truly isn't only about designers but about unmotivated people who poison the workplace. The person in my case happened to be a designer/drafter, bottom line. Don't read into it too much, or assume.

 

[KENAT]

JsTyLz, I thought you'd clarified yourself too.

I had objections to singling out designers and drafters but realized you were basically venting/using them as an example.

Seems from some of the later posts that people think the person identifying the problem is always the problem. Is that really true?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[2dye4]

Have you ever had to spend more than 10 minuites explaining that the drawing is in metric instead of inches and should just scale it or deal with it. Use that 25.4 thing.
I have seen this take much explanation to get through.
Maybe they are pulling my leg, but I can't be sure.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

Geographical location has a lot to do with what you get paid, whether you are lazy or not.

Most of the people in my area that make only $14/hr would not go elsewhere to make twice that much merely because they would have to move to where the $$$+ jobs are.

The companies will pay what the area and the industry will support. If you are in an area that pays $28/hr for a designer - lazy or not, then you better pay that. If you pay that much in an area that typically only pays $14/hr, you will not be in business for long.

 

[cksh]

Whats funny is that there is most likely a post on a cad board somewhere with the title Lazy engineers

It goes both ways for sure. I worked my way up from drafter to senior engineer (after getting my degree). I got my degree so I could be lazy like the rest of the engineers

Engineers think differently than designers/drafters and they defintiely don't speak the same langauge.

It used to drive me up a wall when an engineer would change something back and forth and everytime he wants a new drawing signed and dated.

Or an engineer trying to think out loud by using my drawings as a way of working out his issues.

Or Incompetent engineers trying to disregard other engineers suggestions because they are 'smarter' and I have to redo drawings on a moments notice.

My favorite is when an engineer would mark up a drawing and I would change it only to have him ask me why I changed the print! Nice when I show them the drawing they marked up.

I used to have engineers sit next to me and tell me what they wanted me to draw on the CAD. They would tell me what commands to use. Just remember, there is a good chance the Drafter has been doing cad longer then you have been an engineer.

Also, remember what another poster mentioned. He makes 14 bucks an hour (or even 8 as an intern). He doesn't have to worry about deadlines or finding another job since he could make the same money anywhere. They have nothing to lose.

For every lazy cad operator I bet I could find a lazy engineer (if only the ratio of engineers to cad operators wasn't so different!)

I have noticed that most engineers have a superiority complex but they tend to use it at the wrong time. If you just start at a compnay that designs products you are not familiar with most likely the drafters know more about the product design then you do.

As far as I am concerned engineers and drafters are two different departments whether they work for you or not.

Drafters can work in multiple industries quite easily since, to keep it simple, a line is a line. So, however unlikely it may seem, they might actually know more then you about a particular subject!

Sorry for the rant but working my way up from the gutters I have lived both sides.

Advice:

Get them involved with the project. Don't just hand them marked up prints. Ask for their input on a design (even if you don't use it or could care less!).

Definitely learn cad as a way of providing them with a basis to start from so your idea is clear.

They are probably not passionate about their work. Making the same changes over and over would drive anyone up the wall. Try to understand the standards they are using. it may be the drafting supervisor causing problems and not the drafter.

Teach them what you know. Don't just tell them. they might be more willing and able to help and feel more useful.

cksh. Former cad minion.

 

[ewh]

Good post, cksh.
One of my least favorite occurrences is when an engineer brings his "hot" changes to you 15 minutes before you were going to leave, even though he had been aware of them all day. It almost seems like they purposely schedule it that way, it happens so often.

 

[KENAT]

My favourite version is that we have an ECO board (or should that be bored) every Wednesday afternoon.

You can guarantee that Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning my design services department will have an influx of drawing changes to make/check.

Or I work away from home and usually work longer Mon-Fri and leave mid afternoon Thursday.

The amount of times someone will want drawing change/check shortly before I leave is amazing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[csd72]

Turn it into reality television.

If an engineer and a draftsman cant work together then lock them in a room until they learn to work together (or only one survives - whichever comes first).

csd

 

[ctopher]

Lock them together in a machine shop where nobody can hear them!

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)