Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union. 31

[swertel]

Unions had their time. Unions could still be valuable, but they need to be redefined to represent the needs of the time.

Back in hey-day of Unions, they were beneficial because they represented the best intentions of the members. Coal mining unions were the only things keeping miners safe(r) from the greedy management. Auto unions kept the workers from being abused so they actually had time to spend with families. (Although Mr. Ford paid his employees so well that I can't believe they ever needed to unionize.)

Now, unions exist for the sake of their own existence. They take advantage of their members more than they benefit them. Company management (although still greedy) tend to sway towards keeping the company in business. Unions are causing company management to make poor business decisions that put the livelihood of all employees in jeopardy. That, to me, is worse than not getting a raise one year, or paying more for health benefits, or having to fund my own 401k/pension plan.

I say it's time to get rid of unions, or at least redefine their purpose. And a white-collar union? I didn't work my ass off in college to have my future decided by a bunch of suites in a board room applying blanket policies to my career path as they pad their own wallets.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[jeebusmn]

A tradesman knows he is a dime a dozen. Every engineer beleives he is a hard to come by expert. This is why engineering is not a protected profession.

 

[ScottyUK]

In the utilities sector good engineers are hard to come by. That's why there is such a serious recruiting problem in our industry. Good tradesmen are also becoming hard to find. Bad examples of each are a dime a dozen.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[nickelkid]

In every sector "good" is hard to find in any profession and craft; “hacksmanship” has been accepted as SOP in too many places. I do not think unions as we know them could help that in a cost effective manner, competent management can.

 

[EddyC]

Engineer without job security = "tradesman", "hacksman", "rubber stamper"

 

[KENAT]

With the exception of some government positions (and at the State level even some of those are looking iffy these days), who really has job security?

I've already been told I'm not an engineer because I dont' have PE, so now I'm actually a "tradesman", "hacksman", "rubber stamper".

Oh well.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[vc66]

Job security? HA! Who has job security anymore?

I'm with you, KENAT. I guess we're just unlicensed hacksmen.

Guess I better sell all those expensive textbooks I bought.

V

 

[Unotec]

Well, I thought I was the only one, but in my case I am called advisor. Neat, eh!
Needless to say I am presenting the damned confirmatory tests. (I can't believe I knew all this stuff way back when)
Getting back to the OP's, I have yet to see something good coming out of a union. Most people I've met that like unions, I dont like. But that's just me

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[spongebob007]

"Engineering is a profession. Thus, the initials P.E. after my name."

I am not a P.E. does that make me any less of a "professional"? Big deal, you passed a silly test and send in your dues check every year.

Personally I think they should either do away with PE licensing all together or make it a requirement across the board that anyone calling themselves an "engineer" must be a P.E regardless of the circumstances.

If I were to do the exact same type of work I am doing today, but on my own using the term "engineer" I could be brought up on criminal charges, yet a manufacturing company can hire any dope off the street and legally call him an "engineer" even if he dropped out of school in the 10th grade.

 

[swertel]

Spongebob, that is the problem with engineering being looked at like a commodity instead of a profession. But, that discussion takes this thread off topic.

Look at this website. This website is about engineering professionals, not just professional engineers. Being a professional is about your work ethic and manner as much as it is your technical abilities.

Most countries other than the United States reserve the term engineer for only those that have passed the silly test. The US is one of the few countries that allow companies to pervert the title and apply it to all "engineers" who are industry exempt. You get rid of the exemption, and you will find every engineer has a P.E. after their name. This would help reduce the number of dopes brought off the street and also firm up the respect that engineers deserve for their profession.

Those that aren't engineers but still perform engineering-like functions would be called things like designer or engineering technician.


--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[vc66]

So every person with a degree in engineering, but not enough experience to take the PE would be considered an engineering technician or a designer?

Your high horse just left, you better go catch him.

V

 

[KENAT]

Sorry, I appear to have led to this going off topic and into an area that has been debated before at length to no avail.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[TheTick]

Personally I think they should either do away with PE licensing all together or make it a requirement across the board that anyone calling themselves an "engineer" must be a P.E regardless of the circumstances.

I am not a P.E., mostly because it is simply not required for what I do. If industry required it, I would have it. I am previously on record here in Eng-tips stating that I would willingly surrender the title of "engineer" if it meant that the profession was tightening its standards.

There's more to being a professional than just "doing a good job". Being a member of a profession means that one has more responsibility and accountability to more people: to peers and public as well as to one's employer. Being a PE is more than passing a silly test (that many can not pass). As a practicing PE, one is responsible and accountable to peers, public, and clients.

 

[spongebob007]

I was two years out of college and at my second job. The company I worked for had two engineering labs. One of them was in the engineering department and the other was clear on the other side of the factory. About six months after I started, management decided to consolidate the two labs into one. Most of the equipment in the other lab ended up going to other divisions but there was a small tensile testing machine my boss wanted. One evening I was working late. My boss asked me and one of the other noob engineers to grab a hand truck and get the tensile tester from the other lab.

Well apparently some union slacker who was too busy minding others peoples business to do his own job had seen what we were doing. A few days later we both get a notice to appear at a hearing. The union had filed a grievance against me for moving a piece of equipment across the factory floor. We did not get in any trouble because we were following orders, but as a result the incident, the company agreed to pay a monetary fine to the Union. What a freakin joke!

 

[lovethecold]

What about the "Employee Free Choice Act" that may well be coming? With this passed, I can see most of America becoming unionized; even those employers who are good to their employees. It would be a dark time for the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act

 

[nickelkid]

With the "Employee Free Choice Act" I can see most of America becoming unemployed.

 

[EddyC]

Where I live, the unions are cartels for the people in them, their friends and their relatives. Strangers, women and minorities are not welcome. Its a buddy system to the max. Their goal in my location is to extract as much monetary concessions from employers as possible, period. And many of them are tied in with organized crime. I see no real need for them.

 

[swertel]

Your high horse just left, you better go catch him.

What is this? Pick on Scott week? For the record, some of the best engineers I know are the "old-guys" that never got a degree in the first place. They advanced to being an engineer after years as a tradesman/craftsman. I have more respect for those people than I do most PhD's. Titles mean very little to me. My ranting, if I may call it that, merely takes the thread off-topic a bit more by discussing the current state of the profession and how screwed up it is. No wonder, even engineers can't agree on what it should be - how can the rest of society know what we do.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[swertel]

So, this one time, I was putting in my usual work day of 5:00a to 2:30p. One of my projects was a failure investigation of some overhead equipment. I ran all the analysis I could and decided I had to go with some load cells and actually measure the in-process loads. I set it all up with the test department and cleared it with the production personnel. My window to run the test was during at 6:00p. I finished my regular work day, when home to grab a bite of supper, and drove to the production facility to help set up.

Well, it so happens that production got delayed, so the product wasn't ready to test. It should be ready by 8:00p. OK, the test engineer and I decided to stick around. At 11:00p, the line was running again and we finally had everything we needed so we could run the test, except for the union electrician to plug in the equipment.

Literally. The test engineer and I could hook up the load cells, DAQ, and run the cables, but we physically could not take the power cord from the equipment and put it into the wall socket. A union electrician had to do that. Since it was so late, there weren't any around. Guess what, I plugged that sucker in.

A week later, I get a call into my managers office with a warning about performing duties outside of my role. I should have called the electrician, woke him up, made him drive his ass into work, to plug in the equipment. "That's stupid" was my response.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[swertel]

Then there was this other time.

I was in the machine shop chatting with the operator about some issues with a design modification I did. Nothing big, he just wanted some clarification. Well, the part was over 60lbs, so OSHA says that requires a 2-man lift or crane.

The machinist was unionized, and he was a certified crane operator. So, he rigged the part and began lifting it with the crane. He was holding the pendant with one hand and guiding the part with the other hand. Since he just wanted to tip the part up on it's side, he just rigged it with a loose band. The rigging slipped. His hand was under the part so I reached and stabilized the part, saving his hand. From there, I continued to help guide the part so we could look at the area in question.

By the way, it was just him and I in the area at the time, but a few passers-by were on the walkway going through.

The next day, I get a call into my managers office stating - again - that I am not to perform union work. But, there was not going to be any punative action because the situation resulted due to a safety incident.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro