Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[MaudSTL]

[sub][/sub]@Demented, do you have a link to the alarm company log that shows the exact time of the fire alarm incident that they called in at 1:16:39 AM? The operator at Central Alarm doesn’t state that during the 911 call.

 

[Spartan5]

I have no idea why we must now revisit info we have had for many months.

The imprecise language of the documentation lends itself to that.

For instance “the deck” encompasses a large area that collapsed; including internal parking areas and an expansive external plaza. Everywhere in your timeline you say “the deck” collapses at certain points in time. When all we really know for certain was that a small portion of the entire area that collapsed (immediately adjacent to the lobby) had fallen at some point.

That imprecision crops up in your third statement above: No witnesses described a series of deck collapses; all survivors experienced a single deck collapse.

A few witnesses described seeing a relatively small portion of the deck in the parking garage had collapsed; small relative to the amount that was in the basement after the building came down. Cassie Stratton described the pool deck having had collapsed. She didn’t say anything about the garage.

Some survivors experienced seeing a small portion of the deck had collapsed prior to the building coming done. None of them offered any statements about the other portions of the deck that had collapsed. Many of them experienced noises that could be attributed to the failing of other portions of the deck.

How do you the time of the Stratton call nailed down so tightly? Especially considering her husband was quoted in multiple places, “It was 1:30 a.m. I’ll never, never forget that,”. An understandable misrecollection for sure. But indicative of the nature of these witness “statements.” Right?

And the reports were that the pool deck had collapsed before she made her call. How much time elapsed between that, waking up, figuring out what was going on, and making the call? How long did they talk? Maybe it wasn’t the collapse of the pool deck that woke her up, but that of the more heavily loaded parking area coming down. For all we know, the pool deck had been slowly and relatively quietly collapsing for who knows how many minutes beforehand.

But there it is in your timeline with a nice precise tidy bow on it; 1:15. - “deck” collapse. As if it is one single entity that came down all at once. There is no evidence for that.

 

[SFCharlie]

Lots of different devices have lots of different time sources. Cellphones have extremely accurate time sources so time stamps on cellphone videos should be very good. However, my Microsoft PCs are often off by a minute or two. I haven't been able to set them to automatically check against a time standard more often than once a week. In the case of laptops, the battery operated clocks are often running fast or slow. Mainframes (servers) can be worse. they can have the time set by a human operator. Examples are 911 systems and alarm systems.
Unfortunately, the video we have only shows that something has already happened, so syncing valet collapse to pooldeck collapse is not an option!

SF Charlie
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[MaudSTL]

In building the Timeline spreadsheet starting this past July, it has been my intent to transcribe witness statements accurately, and to arrange them in a logical chronological sequence. I use only credible sources and have not taken any liberties with witnesses’ words. I have been careful to differentiate known timestamps from approximate times. I have provided links to sources for each item. I have made no effort to render conflicting witness statements congruent, nor to embellish or modify what people said. The Detailed Data tab in the spreadsheet is very careful to put witnesses’ words in quotes and to indicate when a time is exact or inexact. I have no theory to advance, support, or defend. As an analyst, my only goal has been accuracy and thoroughness. The witness statements are no substitute for engineering calculations, models, and analysis. However, like the Miami Herald, I believe that engineering theories need to be compatible with the sequence of seven key events in the High Level Sequence tab in the spreadsheet.

No surviving witness saw a deck collapse sequence. So the Timeline spreadsheet avoids implying that the witnesses did. In the spreadsheet, I chose the unmodified word “deck” to avoid making the mistake of implying a sequence, as pool deck and parking deck are two distinct parts of the deck.

We know from WhatsApp timestamps that Sarah Nir was last on WhatsApp at 1:14. We know she walked to the lobby and talked briefly to Shamoka Furman before the deck collapsed. We know Sarah ran to see out the lobby window, which is next to the parking deck, and saw cars fallen into an “abyss.” We know that all surviving witnesses heard and felt one single deck collapse, not a series of more than one deck collapse. We know Shamoka had to ask the Nirs for the street address as they began to evacuate, and made her first call to 911 at 1:16:27. How long did it take Sarah to get to the lobby? How quickly, in all that chaos, panic, yelling, and dust, did Shamoka get on the phone to 911? Nobody knows. We only know that sometime between 1:14 and 1:16:27, the deck collapsed.

The Timeline spreadsheet calls the deck collapse time “approximately 1:15,” and represents this as ~1:15. How does it matter if it’s 1:15:59 or 1:16:00? If Demented can get us a link to the alarm log so we can see when the fire alarm incident was officially logged, we may be able to conclude that the time the incident was logged was the same time as the deck collapsed. Until then, we have no way to describe the time except to call it approximate. And we will still not have a deck collapse sequence based on witness statements, because no surviving witness actually watched as the deck collapsed.

>>>>>Clarification added with underscores.

 

[SFCharlie]

Thank you Maud,
I think you just communicated much more precisely and eloquently, what I intended to say. In fact, I think it was you who set me straight on this issue, so many parts ago. As you have stated above, I don't know why we are rehashing this now. I don't know of any new data that has become available.

SF Charlie
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[Nukeman948]

If Demented can get us a link to the alarm log so we can see when the fire alarm incident was officially logged, we may be able to conclude that the time the incident was logged was the same time as the deck collapsed.

I don't know how accurately the time could be pinned down with the fire alarm reporting log or how much accuracy we are trying to achieve here.

The monitoring company's alarm log may not be able give an accurate time of the collapse because some initiating devices like flow switches have a built in time delay. The fire alarm control panel itself can add an additional time delay before it makes the call. We don't know if the alarm monitoring company picked up on the first ring or the fifth ring. We have a lot of errors that can add up to a lot of time difference.

The only way I can see getting accurate data from the fire alarm is from a forensic analysis of the fire alarm control panel. This would be possible because the circuits for the speakers, strobes, and initiating devices are all continuously monitored and if some of the wires were severed in the collapse, that data is likely preserved in a memory chip in the panel. I believe this was a hybrid system with some wireless devices but some of Mr. Killsheimer's pictures show fire alarm wiring in the parking level.

Sig lines are for trolls.​

 

[Spartan5]

No surviving witness saw a deck collapse sequence. So the Timeline spreadsheet avoids implying that the witnesses did. In the spreadsheet, I chose the unmodified word “deck” to avoid making the mistake of implying a sequence, as pool deck and parking deck are two distinct parts of the deck.

That they are two distinct parts of the deck is the very reason you should be precise in the documentation. Otherwise the unmodified word “deck” implies the whole thing came down at once.

We know that all surviving witnesses heard and felt one single collapse, not a series of more than one collapse.

No. We know that people heard things.
Your own documentation betrays you here. Don’t you have a “First Collapse” at 1:10? And a “Deck Collapse” at 1:15? That’s definitely more than one and certainly seems like a series.

Did anyone actually see anything collapse? That’s pertinent. And you should put a collapse on the timeline.

But here you are labeling things as “First Collapse.” How do you know that was the first collapse? How do you even know it was a collapse at all? That’s editorializing. 100%

Oh, yeah… because in one of many of Nir’s many subsequent interviews she said “like a wall collapsed.” Except initially it was just bothersome construction noises that she was going to file a complaint about. Which is why she casually went to the security desk to complain. It was the way you expect someone to react to an annoyance. Not to the perception that a structural part of the building had fallen down. We can’t have it both ways.

 

[Keith_1]

The fire alarm not sounding is not surprising because it was most likely a fault detected by the supervisor circuit caused by the loss of continuity between the pump and the fire panel.

 

[Demented]

Maud, I don't have access to those logs. I could put in a FOIA as could anyone, but it wont pinpoint the exact time. Easiest thing would be the 911 transcripts which were posted some threads ago when the audio was also released, but even then, that doesn't answer anything on the sequence of events or exact timings. As others with experience in fire systems have said, it'll take forensic investigation into the system to determine that. I can't even find the archived articles with the times I mentioned anymore, as shortly after the new article came out, bookmarked pages I had have all been edited to reflect the SAME story and timeline along 10 different news outlets, word for word. There's a lot of copy and paste going on among journalists in regards to the timeline.

Security video is what we'd need to determine the sequence, if anything, but without even a hint from authorities as to which cameras were facing where, recording, and video captured, we're fully in the dark. Santos81 did hint at the collapse being captured from many angles, but that seeing the additional has only brought he and others more questions than answers.

We need visual clues here. There's no telling where the deck collapsed first. The initial collapse could have even been simply sections of the bottom of the slab they have delaminated leaving the top of the deck and valet parking area looking normal before that too collapsed in areas. Could have began elsewhere in the building that lead to load being distributed to the deck. Even the building in Lagos that collapsed recently didn't just fall down with no warning, despite shoddy materials and deviating from the 6 story plan to 21 stories. Cracks were seen and sounds were heard, and people had enough warning to begin running/jumping, with exceptions to those who were too high or sleeping on their breaks. The FIU bridge didn't just collapse, it slowly started to break almost immediately as it began curing, warning signs were just ignored. The fire bomber that had it's wings rip off didn't just all of a sudden suffer a failure, it was a series of failures that went unnoticed for months to a year.

I'd rather spend my time figuring out if the repair mortars used could have been damaged or delaminated from the pile driving vibration data. Especially since now we've seen column tops in the garage having suffered cracking. Although it still wont be a perfect representation of all the weak spots, we at least have somewhat of close location, square footage, and cubic footage of repair areas to the garage ceiling and the repair materials used, centered near a location with construction damage, major water intrusion, and where Morabito wanted full slab replacement but they were being delayed working out details for construction parking and alternate resident parking. There's been many deaths/injuries in my industry these past few months, one of which myself and others I work with knew personally. I'm glad to be home in one piece after a brutal 12 day stint; there's much better things for us to do than focus on minutes and seconds of shit we just don't know.

Hell, with sounds beginning the night before, and roof crews there through much of mid-day, there's so much time span that we do not have statements on that I find it impossible to pinpoint times of the collapse, as this was very likely a slow event that finally rapidly came to a rapid conclusion. And unfortunately, we only have one set of witness statements saying they saw nothing odd in the garage. How closely did they look? Did they look everywhere? Anyone who could have seen something and said nothing unfortunately may have died in the collapse. The building was in a poor state, and more concrete spalling off, in my stupid opinion, could have been overlooked by many as just another area in a history of 30 years of cracking and spalling concrete; I.E. Nothing out of the ordinary. We just don't know.

Unfortunately we still had our side-tracking with the stupid roof first nonsense and my dumbass had a huge role in that. Many threads ago we were asked politely to stop with the over the top speculation of silly, impossible, and just pointless discussions. We're never going to get any closer to figuring anything out if we keep focusing on stuff that just don't matter, especially when there's no way of confirming the speculation. This whole series of threads is probably 2 to 3 longer than it should be solely due to myself; I can't apologize enough for that, but we really do have to try and keep the discussion to what actually matters.

 

[Nukeman948]

The fire alarm not sounding is not surprising because it was most likely a fault detected by the supervisor circuit caused by the loss of continuity between the pump and the fire panel.

You are definitely on the right track. A loss of continuity in any wiring or loss of connection to any wireless device in the fire alarm system will give a trouble alert at the panel and may call the monitoring company if it is set up for that.

One thing people often don't understand is that the sprinkler system is a stand alone system separate from the fire alarm system and will function fine by it's self. The fire alarm does not start the fire pump. A loss of pressure in this sprinkler system would start the jockey pump first and if the pressure continues to drop, like from an open sprinkler head or a broken pipe, the pump controller will start the fire pump.

The fire alarm system monitors the sprinkler system primarily for "water flow" and "fire pump running" because those imply a potential fire condition. The fire alarm also monitors valves on the sprinkler system and if a monitored service valve gets shut off on the standpipes or at the pump, the fire alarm will have a trouble alert but not an alarm signal.

If there were speakers or strobes not operating on the parking level, it is most likely that those wires were severed by the "deck" collapse or a programed time delay was still in place.

Sig lines are for trolls.​

 

[Demented]

Unless they were installed after the 2018 inspection, both the above ground deck and the garage level did not have fire alarm devices. The fire pump base in the mechanical room was also severely corroded, throwing the alignment of the shaft off and the base and pump were both in need of replacement. With nothing to trigger an alarm, no alarm would be trigged, or so I think.

 

[Nukeman948]

Unless they were installed after the 2018 inspection, both the above ground deck and the garage level did not have fire alarm devices.

Since one of the main purposes of a fire alarm is to get people outside of the building in the case of a fire, no alarm devices are required on an outside deck unless there are other special circumstances.

The original drawings show all the required devices in the garage level and we have Jeff and Mr. Kilsheimer to thank for the photographic evidence that there were new devices installed. A strobe and three addressable modules that appear to be for the flow and valve tamper devices for the surviving stair well standpipe. These are in the maintenance room and a pvc conduit leads from here to the stair well.

As for the pump, even if they didn't do a band-aid repair, the sprinkler system would still operate from city water supply and flow switches should still function. The new fire pump was going to be larger to meet new code requirements and that required the larger generator.

It's a community sandbox so don't eat the tootsie-rolls.​

 

[Keith_1]

There are simply no defects in the construction of this structure, it was entirely a lack of maintenance. The conditions present in this structure are actually fairly common. Failing to maintain the membrane of the building in a highly corrosive environment is going to drastically reduce the structures lifetime. When you have the deck over parking arrangement such as was present here, it is vital to pull up the pavers, and coat the deck every 15 years, or so.

 

[Demented]

Have we any indication when these were installed? I'm looking through the released permits and cannot find anything for the fire system within the time frame.

The special circumstances mentioned by the PE who did the electrical and fire system evaluation for the deck requiring lights and fire alarm devices was that it was a path of egress. Devices were in the stairwell, but not in the enclosed deck per the inspection.

Code compliance cases, there's also nothing beyond mid-2018 in regards to the fire control panel needing recertification and delays due to inspectors cancelling. The mechanical issues regarding the rooftop A/C's, roof vents, garbage chute, and holes in the 12th floor wall were all addressed, but the status for the fire panel inspection has never chanced from scheduled. Permits shouldn't have needed to have been pulled for fixing the code violations, but I don't seem to see any indication of work on the panel or adding fire alarm devices having ever been completed/inspected. Pages FP-1 and FP-2 of Moarbito's don't show anything in regards to new locations either.

Edit: Should be Permit 17-00000602 from 05/08/2017, but this was over a year before the inspection report claiming these devices needed to either be replaced due to corrosion of the electronics, or just overall missing. Permit issue date 02/11/2019.

 

[SwinnyGG]

There are simply no defects in the construction of this structure, it was entirely a lack of maintenance.

That's a BOLD claim right there. Remains to be seen, I think.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

There have been numerous documents that I have looked for which I cannot find either. But of course we know that surfside is allegedly missing a lot of files related to Champlain towers.

If any of these are in the more modern-day I would think that they should have them all electronically.

So I also saw the town of surfside head sent Champlain towers notice of noncompliance for example the garage gate was out of certification, there was lighting that was no longer acceptable, and a number of residences in the building got notices for their lighting due to the turtles which most hotels have now installed these special types of orange lighting that we use at night here in South Florida for the turtles. The town had also notified a few residents that the remodeling done in their condos was done without a permit.

I also noticed pouring through all of the permits in the past 12 months leading up to the collapse, it was interesting that at least four of the units in the 11 stack had their air conditioners replaced in the past year. If memory serves me correctly, 211, 311, 511, 711.

 

[Optical98]

Interview with professor of structural engineering: Sounds of a catastrophic collapse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyRdXg8Dve0

I wish they'd given more examples, but what this does tell us is that the engineers absolutely do take the sounds heard seriously.

Regarding the time-line, I will be using the established time-line until a new and verifiable one is announced.

 

[Demented]

I also noticed pouring through all of the permits in the past 12 months leading up to the collapse, it was interesting that at least four of the units in the 11 stack had their air conditioners replaced in the past year. If memory serves me correctly, 211, 311, 511, 711.

This was due to corrosion at the base of the units preventing proper tie down to the structure. Every few years most units were having their roof mounted units replaced, which is fairly normal in the environment they were in. Most of this was being corrected again during the roofing and anchor work that was ongoing at the time. Thing gauge and poorly galvanized unistrut from Home Depot or building supply warehouses typically isn't going to be the most sturdy or wisest of choices for this environment, but cost cutting was never not an option.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

The should be lasting a lot longer than that. I owned 2 flip condos in 2016 and 2018 where we replaced old AC units up on the roof, but they were old, like 15 years. that is about how long we expect these to survive up on the roof. In some cities, their inspectors are real sticklers about tying the AC to the rack up on the roof. In one city our inspector was checking to make sure that there was exactly a minimum of five threads of the bolt sticking out beyond the tightened nuts after our new AC was fastened to the roof. Also, cost $mefor the crane to lift it on top of the 4 story building. He was only there for about 20 minutes.

 

[Demented]

As someone who spends a large portion of his time, I'm assuming, in home improvement stores, think back to the quality of 15 years ago versus 3 years ago. What we remember isn't what we see anymore. We cannot even get hard anodized aluminum to last longer than 2 years on the beach anymore without severe pitting and deterioration of welds. It's hard to even find in these supply places, actual quality stainless fasteners that do not rust instantly, because cheap Indian and Chinese 304/308 is king now. I agree, things should last longer than they are, but consumerism has won out. Just my opinion based off experiences in ocean front construction and bridge construction in South Florida. When is the last time even I-95 wasn't under construction? 25 years ago?