Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[Jeff Ostroff]

So far the only reasoning I can come up with that sidesteps all of the logistical obstacles and other reasoning, is that this column was added sometime after Fiorella's garage video was shot in July 2020 and before the collapse date.

And that this new column would not have been used to shore up the H beam because it is too far from the age beam to be directly underneath it.

But rather this column would have been placed to shore up some part of the lobby floor slab right near the H beam.

 

[MaudSTL]

I'm not sure any government agencies want an investigation. I think it's the way things are done in Florida.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I have had the impression that Miami-Dade would like to make it difficult for Surfside to seize the narrative with a KCE report that supersedes the NIST report. Miami-Dade would like Surfside to be culpable, and Surfside would like to defend itself.

 

[Demented]

An 18"x24" at minimum column popping up in the middle of a drive lane with no one noticing or complaining. I just can't see it.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

They could put this column there in the middle of the drive lane until people look just drive around it for the time being until we can get the ceiling fixed.

As far as where the drone video came from I can't discuss that. There are still certain legalities about flying drones in certain areas we will just leave it at that

 

[Demented]

I missed the opening. I only saw the NIST B-roll. If it is who I think it is that's still flying his drone, it's only a matter of time until more than just the local cops pop up at his door demanding he stop.


If they were to build an 18"x24" or 24"x24" column there as temporary shoring, that'd leave them with 9ft on either side for travel lanes. Not an impossible drive, but still, why and who would have authorized it?
Edit: Also, why here, but not under the other noted failed/failing slab sections? Specifically around the K13.1 region.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

At Champlain Towers East, they have a lot of shoring in the garage right around columns to support the weekend lobby floor.

 

[Reverse_Bias]

Can't see any rebar under the red column. Maybe the red column ripped off the blue rebar next to it and it's actually one column at the location of the rebar.

Edit: If you zoom in you can see that is the top piece of the red column. The corners are rounded and rebar ears sticking out of it. Either it fell off during the collapse or someone sliced it off and placed it there.

 

[Nukeman948]

Here's my ideas on the columns in that area, even though Demented (and others) may "highly doubt" my conclusion.

Let's start with how the building was designed.
In the parking level columns were laid out to give the maximum number of parking spaces and required driveway areas. We also know that the regulations are so strict on the size of parking spaces that they had to use drop panels instead of increasing column size for strengthening for the 40 year rehab.

The "A" units, with unencumbered ocean views from several rooms, were the premier units with the exception of the penthouse. But the parking level column at O-8 would be right in the living room area and that wouldn't fly. So they replaced it with a "K" column in the corner of the kitchen of those units. That required the transfer beams bm33, bm34, and bm35 for support and column "K" was planted on bm35.

So what can we see in the pictures that can give us some clues as to what happened. The three transfer beams stayed together and seem to have landed just far enough north to clear the columns that supported them. In almost all other column locations there is rebar sticking out of the floor with some concrete remaining at the base between them but not where the mystery column is. There are just a couple of rebars on bm35 where the "K" column once was.

Now for the wild and crazy part.
We know that the force of a tornado can do strange things like drive a straw into a tree or a 2x4 into a block wall.
We know that a Hilti gun can drive a nail into concrete with only a small .22 size powder charge.
Now if that "K" column broke free of bm35 with short rebar pieces sticking out and column ties holding it together and was driven into the floor with the force of a 12 story building behind it, I believe that rebar could have have been impaled just enough to remain there. It wouldn't need to go very deep and the column would keep it going straight in like the frame of a Hilti gun guides the nail.

It is also unlikely that the NIST people will ever address this small "mystery" for us.
Maybe the "K" stands for Krazy.

 

[AutisticBez]

Jeff, the H in my opinion has fallen very far away from its original location. On the drawing, you can see a couple of spots where there is two columns close to each other. The H has come down sideways with the collapse of the building such that it's maybe an entire columns length away from its original location.

It should be located over the laneway between parking. Where cars drive. There is a column in the middle, not present in the basement, extending up the building. The H is designed to support this column which would be blocking cars.

I would say the H has moved a column space north and another to the west. So diagonal movement which would fit the collapse of the columns rather then punching shear. They collapsed on an angle from slab.

Or during debris removal, the H ended up moving over there as columns were being removed.

 

[Nukeman948]

It should be located over the laneway between parking. Where cars drive. There is a column in the middle, not present in the basement, extending up the building. The H is designed to support this column which would be blocking cars.

I believe you have this part correct but if you use the end of the ramp for a starting reference point you may see what we are seeing.

Also, the H would be too heavy to lift in one piece with the reach needed for the cranes they were using and it is too large for it to fit between column stubs if they were to try sliding it around on the floor. The video shows the building moving in the opposite direction from what you are suggesting. Edit: I guess it could fit between the column stubs but it would take some very deliberate maneuvering.



I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose.

 

[Demented]

@Reverse Bias
It is attached at the base, and in the correct location.

@Nukeman948,
I don't doubt rebar punching into the slab at all. My only issue is the size of the cage. A K column is 12"x24". The red base column, if in correct location, would be a column F 16"x16", to the right of that a column L 12"x24", and at the south end of beam 35, a column C 16"x16". There's also a 36" safety cone with a 15.25"x15.25" base near for comparison too.

For that to be a K, it would have had to have fallen towards the ocean 4'5" or so. Did that fall towards the ocean while everything else fell away? Potentially a C(O10), L(P8), or D(O6) column instead? I feel one of these hitting on a diagonal could at least leave a similar pattern of rebar in the slab. I've seen some other C columns blown open similarly.

@AutisticBez
If the beams have moved, they've moved the associated columns with it, including the one for parking spot #19 which is still standing on the slab.

It's hard to tell what damage to the H beam is from the recovery process. Beam 33 appears to be completely broken off with exceptions of the rebar. It definitely could have broke or shifted in recovery, or somehow even completely flipped upside down though unlikely.

 

[Nukeman948]

I don't doubt rebar punching into the slab at all. My only issue is the size of the cage.

So your main question is which column punched into the slab based on the size of that group of rebar. While all the columns you mentioned are possible candidates, the K seems to be the closest to the point of impact. After it broke free of the H beams, those beams could have deflected it's direction of fall or the buildings rotation just before it fell may have steered it to that point. Many of the other columns broke at each floor but remained joined by the rebar giving them a linked sausage appearance and for one to break off cleanly enough to punch into the floor seems much less likely. Also the K column's 24 inch dimension was oriented in the north-south direction but some of the rebar may not have remained stuck in the floor after the cleanup.
I'm still pretty open to it being some other column if better evidence emerges.

I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose.

 

[sgw1009]

Briefing map from July shows the H beams in the same location that they are in now, and also shows the "mystery" column. So it appears to not have moved much when it fell, or to have been moved.

 

[Optical98]

It's weird that none of the survivors or their relatives, from either wing, seem to be following these threads or posting remarks. No comments even on youtube videos. The survivors at this point are probably under "gag" orders from their lawyers, but heck most would know how to create a fake acct and use a VPN to make comments etc.

The lady from 611 survived and the #17 parking space was hers... someone, her son even...could ask her had a new column been placed near the vicinity of hers etc.

Regarding the mystery rebar, could the remnants of the supported column have still been attached to the top of the vertical section and perhaps they cut it off and just set it adjacent to the structure? Because the base of that rebar is very dark and black looking compared to all other column bases?

 

[Demented]

The base is darker there due to it being wet.

https://www.nist.gov/video/b-roll-video-reel-2-champlain-tower-south-nist-investigation

For higher res, 1:50 time stamp in the NIST video.

@Nukeman948
I agree it is possible for the E side of beam 35 to deflect the column back. Especially so if the beam assembly twisted off it's columns before that section collapsed, which it may have done.

It's unfortunate all of the live streams of the recovery/rescue efforts have been deleted.

 

[Demented]

Originally posted by Auri 15 Jul 21 00:30 in Pt 6

https://files.engineering.com/getfi...-4160-908f-ec3da4f6949a&file=curious-fort.jpg

Drone video at time.

https://youtu.be/jI6Up5Nv70c?t=289

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Reverse_Bias]

I just don't see how they built an extra column after 2020 and kept it a secret. Every person who went into the garage would have seen it. There'd be a long digital paper trail.. plans, permits, certifications, cost estimates, bills ect...

 

[Optical98]

Well we know that they had applied for parking relocation permits to begin the shoring up of the garage. Maybe the shoring up was already in progress in certain areas of the garage, and using the typical metal braces were not going to be strong enough to hold up that H beam, so they had started placing a new column there?

 

[spsalso]

Maybe someone can clear up the mystery by examining the markings on the left-behind rebar.

"Someone" could be NIST, maybe.

Or "someone" else.



spsalso

 

[Nukeman948]

I just don't see how they built an extra column after 2020 and kept it a secret. Every person who went into the garage would have seen it. There'd be a long digital paper trail.. plans, permits, certifications, cost estimates, bills ect...

Not to mention no Engineer anywhere in the world would put a column in the middle of a driveway only 4.5 feet from a perfectly good K column and transfer beams but supporting nothing, and only supported by a slab with no pilings at all underneath it.
Didn't Happen.