Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[Demented]

At best, that area would be maybe 2ft from the corner of a cap.

Jeff, are you just speculating like the boom lift, or are you just the only onw who knows about this temporary shoring column here because you're the one who did it? I've seen some crazy stuff in this area, but never anything quite that crazy.

 

[Nukeman948]

Is there even a PIF foot underneath that?

If you read my posts (not the tongue in cheek ones) I already pointed out that there is no PIF or any other kind of pile in that location.

Perhaps the column punched through the foundation?

Yes, as I mentioned before and that's what Demented and I have been discussing. We do believe a column punched through or became embedded in the slab. (it's a slab there, the plies are the foundation and the columns should be centered on the pile cap, not 2 feet away)

Maybe there is a language barrier here.





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[AusG]

I'm struggling to see how a column either drives itself so perfectly into a basement slab that no cracks or deformation or protruding bits of its concrete are visible, or could go unremarked and undocumented as a bizarre new construction. Both seem on the outer edge of possibility but I guess the punching is possible. Which column though?
The column supported by beams #33-35 is a type K, 12"x 24"with 10 of #10 rebar in a 2x5 array. Those practiced at counting tar-paper roofing rolls should have a go at this, but I count more than 10, and to my eye arranged 4x3 making it closer to a type C. I can offer no explanation as to what it's doing there. The nearest type C is at O10 only a half-space move away but but this creates many other discrepancies.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

@SFCharlie, As I stated in the video Charlie, that mystery column on the 1st floor is what we call a floating column. It went straight up to the penthouse level but did not go from the first floor down to the garage floor to keep the east West driving lanes of the garage clear.

So the whole purpose of this H beam then is to take that load from that floating column on the first floor through the penthouse floor and distribute it to the other four columns on the floor of the garage.

as I mentioned in the video, I did not agree with that strategy using the H-Beam without increasing the sizes of the other four columns first due to the unbelievable amount of weight that they are expected to carry compared to their neighboring columns in the garage.

Now following that mystery column up from the first floor to the penthouse I still don't understand why they needed it but it does show up in the corner of the kitchens and all of the “12 stack” oceanfront unit A condos such as unit 112, unit 212, etc. The column appears on the northeast corner of the kitchen although I still don't see why they are needed.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Yes everybody is right to bring up the PIF required under a column AS-BUILT! A building when it is built should have a pile under every single column going all the way down to the bedrock.

But all I'm saying here, in this case, is that there is no logical reason for this column to be on the garage floor right now especially since we saw in Fiorella’s video last year that it was not there so to me with the evidence we have so far until we are proven wrong, I can only assume this column was added in the last 12 months. Only this scenario makes sense right now given the facts we have now.

Now you're talking about my theory doesn't make sense for them to add the column without a pile beneath it. Yes that is true! BUT… maybe it was added by somebody that didn't know what they were doing which is common down here in Florida, or it was added as temporary support until the pool deck work is completed. This is the only explanation I could come up with that aligns up with all of the evidence in the photos that we have seen so far. If somebody can come up with another scenario of how this column got there when it is not in the original plans over a pile. Please let us all know.

Bottom line: there was no column there on the garage floor in July 2020 video, now there is one. How did it get there? Not likely pierced from a falling column above, it’s too perfect, and no punch through damage or craters on the concrete foundation.

 

[Nukeman948]

The column appears on the northeast corner of the kitchen although I still don't see why they are needed.

The K column and the two oddball columns at N-6 and O-6 are positioned where they could give the needed support for the A condo units while still being hidden "architecturally".

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[Nukeman948]

Now you're talking about my theory doesn't make sense...

The only load bearing column near the mystery column's location is the K column. If anyone wanted to "shore up", for any reason, they would put it directly underneath the K column. It would give support where needed and not block the drive any worse than where you believe it was built.

You are the one that brought up this theory and you can't admit that there are far too many flaws in your theory for it to remain a viable theory.

Edit: Shoring is always done with temporary members because shoring is never to be used as a permanent solution. Reinforced concrete is a permanent solution that would never be used for shoring.

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[Demented]

No one in their right mind would build a column there.

Close but not accurate. Pretty sure there were pile spacing changes after the drawing I referenced.
^Ha. Close, dumb dumb. Yeah, the pile cap spacing is even further than it appears due to some messed up scaling of one dimension. I needed 2 hands to count it seems.


Edit:
Not exact time link, but close. This animation was posted back in one of the earlier parts. Although not completely identical to what happened, if you look through it does appear as though in at least a simulated world, the K column could be knocked off towards that area and driven into the slab.

https://youtu.be/HPwJ0JvTcg8?t=249

Edit2:
CTS will be discussed starting around 12:55PM today.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...uction-safety-team-advisory-committee-meeting

Edit 3:
Fixed.

 

[SFCharlie]

Perhaps the column punched through the foundation?

...as plausible as any I've heard...


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[SFCharlie]

I'm struggling to see how a column either drives itself so perfectly into a basement slab that no cracks or deformation or protruding bits of its concrete are visible, or could go unremarked and undocumented as a bizarre new construction.,,, but I guess the punching is possible.

Yes, it is a reach, but...

Which column though?

??? the "ghost column, I mentioned in my apology???




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[Optical98]

Yeah, I'm going back to my original theory that "pictures are deceiving" and that the mystery rebar looks like it was cut from somewhere and sat adjacent to the H beam, because the bottom looks black and burnt, not just wet.

 

[Nukeman948]

Ha. Close, dumb dumb. Yeah, the pile cap spacing is even further than it appears due to some messed up scaling of one dimension. I needed 2 hands to count it seems.

Anyone that can laugh at their own errors, make corrections and move on is A-OK in my book.
Once again you prove to be the exception to the stereotype of Florida Man.
I hope you get rich off the royalties from your Patented Beam Stretcher™.

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[Red Corona]

Yeah I'm not having this extra column either. It doesn't make sense that no-one would have reported it, or that there are no permits for its construction. You don't shore by building a complete new column with rebar like that anyway. (The proposed shoring and improvements to column/slab connections in the 2019 report weren't extra columns either.) And it doesn't even make sense from a load perspective.

I can buy the "a column that was supported by that H beam punctured the floor slab", though it does also seem unlikely given that there isn't obvious deformation in the floor slab nearby. But then again we know a whole building dropped on that slab and it survived, so maybe that's not so impossible.

 

[Demented]

A relatively thin slab too. Only sizeable impact mark on it seems to be from some of the dynamic pile testing.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[zebraso]

A relatively thin slab too.

By the fact that water is collecting there, the "mystery" could be that it is depressed and the cracks and punch shear are also obscured by the water. I think I see a large crack radiating out towards the east anyway.

 

[Spartan5]

How thick was the garage slab there? What was the reinforcement?

Considering how the pencils poked right through the pool slab…

 

[Demented]

Assuming this location is like the rest of the slab, thickness there is roughly 6.5". It should be 9", but that only appears to be the case in areas where the ~2.5" step has been seen on the slab. Reinforcing is some #4's with 12" spacing going both ways. Easily enough room for some #10's with a building behind them to find it's way through, if that is even in the realm of possibilities here. 4kpsi spec'd, but the slab is being treated as cracked 3kpsi which is a no brainer.

I sure hope that 2" topping on the pool deck wasn't meant for the basement.

Use your imagination to fill in the blanks.

 

[AusG]

Is it not strange that there is more rebar poking out of the floor than out of the top center of the H where that K column was supposed to be attached with 10 of #10 all spliced in?

 

[JStephen]

A question for those of you following this thread. Quote from post above:
"The Miami Herald describes Morabito’s dilemma in this archived piece. Engineer’s insurers argue they shouldn’t be on hook for millions in Surfside condo collapse.."
Evidently, Morabito had general commercial liability and umbrella coverage, but that coverage specifically exempted design and engineering work. I would assume that meant they had either separate policies or separate insurers that furnished errors & omissions coverage, yet several minutes of googling stories on them doesn't show that to be case anywhere, and several articles talk like Morabito is just on the hook if those particular polices are not applicable. Anyone know if there was separate coverage for the engineering aspect?

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

You would not see that first-floor floating column attached directly to the top of the beam. Remember that each beam connects to the bottom of the first-floor slab which is likely 9 1/2 inches thick. So really what you're looking for is the first slab to see how that floating column would have attached that slab, not directly to the H-Beam