Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[Demented]

The column wouldn't have been supporting beam 35, if that were the case. If there were a case where they needed to construct a new concrete column because other standards of shoring would not work, I find it hard to believe the building would not have been evacuated and serious evaluation would have been underway, long before the collapse. Not so much as a peep from anyone about a new emergency column; not even from the people complaining about the tar smell.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[SFCharlie]

I must be stupid, but I just don't understand what the mystery is?

SF Charlie
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[zebraso]

I just don't understand

That "H" is resting quite north of where it is in the drawing, unless I'm stupid.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Whenever someone makes the claim like this about the column falling eight feet and impaling into the garage floor, you forget that there is zero damage on the floor where there should have been craters or something else if it had impaled into the floor but there is no damage. These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months, since Fiorella shot her video inside the garage in July 2020, showing no column exists where that mystery column is.

 

[Nukeman948]

These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months...

Who would build a column where there is no pile to support it?
What could they have been trying to support with that column?

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

IF...they were to build this column sometime between Fiorella's video in July 2020, and the time of the collapse, the only reason I can think of is they were adding a temporary shoring of the lobby level floor right near the beam, or possibly they saw something wrong with the H-beam like deflection, and maybe the bottom of the H-beam was under tension so they would build a column to support the bottom of the middle of the beam as a shoring.

Now, what if someone built this column without pulling permits? There might not always be a paper trail, and Surfside is missing documents.

Why would the column be built without a pile under it? People are stupid. Maybe it was temporary to help distribute part of loads from above.

 

[SFCharlie]

That "H" is resting quite north of where it is in the drawing,

Yes, (Well, a few feet Northwest, I think. see Auri's photo from 15 Jul 21 00:30 in Pt 6, reposted by Demented (Industrial)7 Nov 21 18:07 above) ... and the "H" has dropped several feet from the garage ceiling to the slab. It has debris under it. The columns it was supported by, are still vertical. It must have moved off the columns to get to the floor.

SF Charlie
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[SFCharlie]

Just to beat a horse...

SF Charlie
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[Jeff Ostroff]

Yes, it appears the H-beam moved 12" to the north off the columns to slide down to the floor. And still does not explain the mystery column, centered about 2 feet east of the H-Beam coming out of the garage floor.

 

[zebraso]

Just to beat a horse...

Well. I don't know. I think I'm seeing what Autistic was referring to. I'm talking more like 15-20 ft. whatever the column spacing is to the north (a row of columns). The H appears to lie in line with the bottom of the ramp which is not where it is in the drawings. As Autistic said: "very far away from its original location".

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

I think a lot of you are misreading the floorplan, especially if you use the drawings SFCharlie submitted above.

The line that you think is the bottom of the ramp on that drawing is NOT the bottom of the ramp!

The drawing shows the ramp in abbreviation mode, meaning it is not showing you the ramp continuing to the end, the bottom of the ramp really extends down to be in line with the north side of the H-Beam.

The H-Beam did not move. You misinterpreted where the bottom of the garage ramp is. Remember, SFCharlies posted floorplan above is not a garage level, it is a ground-level drawing, so it only shows the ramp going down halfway, not all the way. Just like architects renditions of stairs don't show them going all the way down to the bottom.

 

[Spartan5]

These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months, since Fiorella shot her video inside the garage in July 2020, showing no column exists where that mystery column is.

Does anyone know if there were any Black Friday sales on columns in the area last holiday season?

The plot thickens!!!

 

[Nukeman948]

What's the matter Florida Boy? Run Down Condo's ruining you Property's Value?

We now have a new product for the Elite Condo Owner: "Temporary Reinforced Concrete Shoring Columns"!

It's Temporarily Permanent!!
Buy one today!
Shore up that lackluster beam that's always letting you down!
Don't get left behind with Old Fashioned Pilings!!!
It's "new AND improved"!!
No need to wait 28 days for it to cure to rated strength!!!
It's Concrete! The most Permanent Temporary Thing EVER!!
No permits necessary!!! (It's Florida Folks!!!!)
Just put it somewhere near whatever you want to support and call it "Close Enough"!!!!
Build on top of the Everglades!, Put them in your Drivway! "Who Cares"!!!!!
Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!!
For a limited time you can use the discount code:"DURRR"!!

 

[Optical98]

Zebraso

Most of the plans don't show that the ramp extended a full parking space beyond the stairwell, that has thrown me off a few times too.

 

[zebraso]

The line that you think is the bottom of the ramp on that drawing is NOT the bottom of the ramp!

Got it. Thanks. I will re-calibrate.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Exactly @optical98, I tell everyone to look at the part of Fiorella's video that I showed in this video, and you'll see it shows the ramp extended beyond the stairs to become space #14, and I also showed you on her screenshot of the garage that the H-Beam is inline with the bottom of the ramp.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Another interesting tidbit of information I just doug up by pouring through the building perits at Champlaint Tower South. Several of the condo units in the "11 stack" had their AC's replaced this year:

Unit #511 A/C
Penthouse 11
Unit #711 New Tiles
Unit #211 A/C
Unit #311 A/C

 

[SFCharlie]

Ok Ok Finally, Dawn breaks over Marble Head. So, my ghost column is on the first floor plan. So now I'm trying to understand, was it attached to the top of the "H" beams? If so, where did it go? Shouldn't there be some rebar on the top of the "H" where it was attached? Now I'm sure I'm more confused than ever.
Sorry everyone. Thanks for straightening me out.

SF Charlie
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[zebraso]

Dawn breaks over Marble Head.

Do I have your permission to use that phrase? You're doing pretty darn good compared to where I was. I was actually ready to say you found the column. I love a good mystery. It might be time for Rod Serling.

edit: just thought a little closer look at the rebar sticking out might help. Not so sure that the dark color is just because it's wet.

 

[AutisticBez]

Okay, I was wrong previously. Look, it's really up to you Jeff to find a permit somewhere in which someone drilled a massive hole into the foundation and installed a magical column sticking up in the middle of the lane. I don't think anyone is putting a column up in the middle there. Is there even a PIF foot underneath that?

Look, it's really very simple, you have a column in the middle of the H beam, and the only thing holding it up is the H beam, and the H beam has dropped down the foundation. So, the column is going to drop as well. Perhaps the column punched through the foundation? I can't find any other logical conclusion. Does anyone here disagree with the concept of a column shearing through the foundation?

Really, this topic is pretty dead. What is the mystery? The column PIF'ed it's way through the foundation. It's not like the foundation is going to be super strong in the middle.