Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 17 14

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 15
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16


SF Charlie
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[zebraso]

I was wondering how they sealed the edge where it ends across the deck at the transition to the valet area. Did the do anything in particular about cracks the transverse that edge? Was it flashed somehow? Where is the work order?

 

[spsalso]

"Is there a standard way to make a maintenance free, waterproof, concrete roof or deck?
Is there something that can be put between two layers of concrete, that will be waterproof and durable?"

Coming to mind:

Tar. Maybe combined with roofing felt.

If you want to spend a few more bucks, stainless steel should work out. Or copper.


spsalso

 

[IanCA]

@SFCharlie Thank you for these observations.

One of the recent videos shows gravel from the neighbor's sidewalk coming through the south wall.

In this area, as far as I can tell, the deck above the wall and sheet pile sheared off from the top of the wall, or disintegrated, and collapsed into the basement.

The rebar (that anchored the pool slab to the wall) is broken (not zipped) at the wall.

Despite my previous flippant remarks on the topic, sorry about that, I think spsalso makes a valid point in his post in thread 15 at 12 Feb 22 15:51 as follow:

In the picture with the five red circles, I see holes. Not rebar. I don't see any rusty discoloration around the holes.

I think it's possible the rebar was pulled out.

To the east, a moderate distance away, short lengths of zipped rebar are visible. Farther east, where the building was brought down by controlled demolition, the rebar zipped full length.

I think the different regions you are describing correspond quite closely with those identified by Sym P. Le in thread 15 on 2 Feb 22 21:07

As I've further considered your previous images, I've realized that there are three failure modes along the southern edge and I propose the following:

Zone A: Slab is pulled north off the south perimeter wall
Zone B: A tab of the greater slab fractures along the edge as it is pulled simultaneously off the wall and laterally to the west as it follows zone A
Zone C: The slab breaks cleanly along the perimeter wall but does not pull off of the wall

Overall I think it means the strength of the concrete and rebar had changed quite significantly within a few feet.

 

[IanCA]

I went looking for the original photos of the planter with cracks and found these recent documents I haven't seen mentioned before:

Dispose_of_Rubble_the_County_Deemed_as_Having_Less_Signficant_Evidentiary_Value

Relocation_of_Evidence_to_Additional_Primary_Evidence_Facility

NIST_to_Move-Rearrange_Evidence

County_to_Dispose_of_Rubble_Deemed_Less_Significant

It makes me wonder how the county is making that determination. Does anyone here have insight on that?

 

[IanCA]

stainless steel should work out

I agree but don't forget about the hydrochloric acid:

The common stainless steel types, 304 and 316 should be considered non-resistant to hydrochloric acid at any concentration and temperature. Higher grades of stainless steel can have limited resistance, up to around 3% maximum at ambient temperatures, but may suffer local attack, mainly as crevice and pitting corrosion, even at such low concentrations.

Perhaps tantalum?
Tantalum is the most corrosion resistant metal in common use today. ...Tantalum is inert to sulfuric and hydrochloric acid in all concentrations below 150°C. The corrosion attack on tantalum is insignificant up to 205°C and tantalum has been in use up to 260°C.

 

[FJBnomics]

It makes me wonder how the county is making that determination. Does anyone here have insight on that?

My take on the whole thing is that Miami-Dade County has had jurisdiction the whole way on this investigation, and the County called in NIST to take over the investigation. IMO, the County could have lead the investigation and forced NIST role to be secondary.

I am sure that the reason Surfside contributed to the Civil case settlement is that all sources of funds to civil case settlement, get a 'Get out of Jail Free' Card for joining in the settlement. In other words, immunity from Criminal prosecution.

Investigation only of interest to NIST now, as Miami-Dade County has settled the disputes. End of story as far as they are concerned.

NIST is not doing a collapse investigation, but rather a study of materials found after collapse and investigation of how to design better specifications and STANDARDS for Construction of Buildings.

This is a JOBS program for NIST and they Subcontractors, funded by Uncle SAM, at tax payers expense.

For example: Why only in US can hydrocracked petroleum be called 'Full Synthetic' Motor Oil? In Europe, Full Synthetic has to be derived from synthetic base stocks. Look up Exxon Mobile Law Suit against Quaker State. Hint: Quaker State Won....

 

[spsalso]

"I am sure that the reason Surfside contributed to the Civil case settlement is that all sources of funds to civil case settlement, get a 'Get out of Jail Free' Card for joining in the settlement. In other words, immunity from Criminal prosecution."


I would surely like to hear where that concept comes from.

The closest match I can come up with is that if a damaged person accepts money from, say, Surfside, and says that that money covers appropriate damages, then it's pretty tough to say in a criminal trial that they ARE damaged. Since, by accepting the money, their damage has been erased. If the criminal charges are based on financial loss that the victim has said no longer applies (by accepting the money and signing the paper), yeah. I can see that.

But,as far as I can see, that does not at all apply to ALL criminal cases. If Surfside was accused of negligent manslaughter, paying off some victims does not shield them from prosecution. It MIGHT apply to a criminal charge of fraud.

An interesting point, for sure.

spsalso

 

[FJBnomics]

I believe 'Civil Compromise' is the correct legal term for where 'Certain' Criminal Cases can be settled with Money, when all parties agree, the DA can drop or reduce charges in certain criminal cases. It happens all the time in American.

 

[spsalso]

But the subject was that of using the fact of a civil case settlement to eliminate risk of a criminal trial. That was supposed to be the reason Seaside gave money. THAT is what I am curious.

What you are just now describing sounds like what happens when a corporation is found guilty in a criminal court. The corporation (meaning, in my opinion, the board members) do not go to jail. The corporation (meaning the stock holders) supplies money, instead.

For some reason, negligent homicide can get humans put into jail, but never corporations.

But I see no connection between this concept and getting off the hook by settling a civil trial.

"...the DA can drop or reduce charges in certain criminal cases." Yes, it does happen all the time. It's called prosecutorial discretion. Something else I'm not too impressed with.


spsalso

 

[FJBnomics]

What I read was Surfside was not a defendant in the Litigation leading up to settlement, but they chose to join in and pay $2 Million Dollars. Why would they do that if they were not getting some benefit out of that???

Yes Politicians and Corporate Officers frequently skirt criminal prosecution by settling for an amount of money that satisfied the Government agencies or Class if class action litigation....

Unfortunately our Judicial System makes some decisions based on reasons other than the actual LAW...

My understanding is not all victims joined in Class Action, thus there is more risk out there, unless of course you reach a Judicial Settlement.

 

[spsalso]

"What I read was Surfside was not a defendant in the Litigation leading up to settlement, but they chose to join in and pay $2 Million Dollars. Why would they do that if they were not getting some benefit out of that???"

I think they did it because they were afraid they'd lose a lot more money if they were sued later. As you pointed out, they weren't defendants going in. That does NOT mean they wouldn't be at a later date.

What this does is preclude those same litigants from going after them later. It does not get them off the hook for any criminal charges. Nor does it get them off the hook for being sued by some entity that was not in the collection of litigants in THIS suit.

I believe that anyone who declined to join the class-action can still sue. But they will not have the benefit of the "group discount" for the legal fees. There is, of course, an efficiency of scale.

Also, the decision to put up the $2 million may have not been made by the city itself. The city may have had some kind of insurance to cover the cost, and the insurer "insisted" that it happen. Again, to preclude a larger amount later.


spsalso

 

[FJBnomics]

In legal terms though, it sets precedent, or what each life is worth....

 

[spsalso]

A life is either worth money, or it's not.

If it's not, then no amount works.

Someone can offer you $1 for your child's life. It means nothing. They can offer $100 million. It means nothing.

If it is worth money, you have to pick a number.

Time to negotiate.




spsalso

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

If homeowners and HOA knew about damage and cracks in 20116, why didn’t they sue then?

I just put out a video last night itemizing the latest massive $1.1 billion settlement from last Friday, and the judge approved it over the Memorial Day weekend. I sifted through the 181-page settlement and built a spreadsheet with the entire breakdown of every single company that was a defendant in the lawsuit, and over a dozen other entities who are non-party defendants, not named in the lawsuit, but could be named later, and I showed their logos and in the amount that they are paying.

If the settlement is accepted by the 4 plaintiff classes, then yes none of these entities admit guilt nor can they be sued later on. However, the judge is allowing people until July 18th if I remember correctly, to opt out of the class action which would in my opinion be very foolish.

This 1.1 billion dollar settlement came out of nowhere Friday and was even higher than the $977 million announced on May 11, this surprised many people plaintiffs including the judge and people would be foolish to not take this huge amount of money now.
Litigation would drag on five to 10 years and most of the money would just go to the lawyers anyway. One other issue facing the homeowners there in the condo is there is this very strange Florida law that says that once the HOA insurance policy is maxed out, which it is right now, any amounts awarded more than coverage in a lawsuit, would have to be spread out amongst the remaining owners who didn't take part in the class action. This could be devastating here you are a victim and you can end up paying money to your property lawsuit settlement.

I know everybody was pointing fingers at everybody else but in reality, everybody here is likely culpable including all of the homeowners who illegally put tiles out on their patios and I showed on my video a week ago how numerous people had tiles on their patios. Over at Champlain towers north, years ago they forced all of the owners to remove tiles from their patios and to just paint and seal.

 

[FJBnomics]

Jeff

Thank you for your time and efforts summarizing the massive 1.1 Billion Settlement agreement in your latest video. I like you don't understand why the Security Company threw in 517xxxx million dollars when they were NOT even a defendant. No way their risk was anywhere that high, and in reality, no way they did anything wrong in my take either.

Link to Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXBtvov3DLg

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

I've seen reports where some people are blaming the security company for not sounding the fire alarm since she was told by Sarah Nir to pull the fire alarm after she made the 911 call at about 1:17 or so, she made two 9-11 calls. The building collapsed at 1:22, four minutes later. Maybe not enough time to get everyone out, and how many would leave anyway from a fire alarm?

ALSO, supposedly speakers were put in everybody's units and tested two weeks before the collapse so that theoretically they should have been able to speak into the mic and tell everybody to get out of the building that was going to collapse.
So there's some Gray area there, and also there was another 911 call that came in at the same time that the security guard called 911. That call came from the fire alarm monitoring service whose employee told 911 that there was a fire alarm at Champlain towers.

And of course, there was speculation about that whether the fire alarm was audible, or whether or not it was a pressure alarm when the pool slab crashed through the sprinkler pipes and the loss of pressure triggers an alarm and that is usually not an audible alarm for whatever reason.

 

[MaudSTL]

The first book is being published.

https://www.wflx.com/prnewswire/202...oks-what-led-tragedy-surfside/?outputType=amp

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

that is interesting, that author, Greg Batista, was one of the CTS defendants who settled, his company G. Batista and Associates, is paying $1 million to settle.

 

[SFCharlie]

The first book is being published.

I just ordered it on Amazon for like $7, so I look forward to publishing a review here soon...


SF Charlie
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[MaudSTL]

@Jeff Ostroff, you’re right about the four minutes. But no one would have known that a collapsed deck would bring down a building. It would have taken seconds to minutes to recognize that something even worse than the deck failure was about to happen.

~1:15 AM Deck collapses
1:16:27 AM Shamoka Furman reports "A big explosion" "earthquake."
1:16:39 AM Central Alarm Control reports fire alarm.
1:17:49 AM Shamoka Furman reports "Earthquake." "Garage." "Something underground everything exploded down."
1:22 AM Building collapses

I have never had a building collapse around me, but I have been mugged twice (within two weeks of each other…yes, I had to overcome PTSD.) In my personal experience with physical assault, it takes more seconds than you would imagine to realize WTF is even going on. Once you realize what is happening, then the adrenaline kicks in and you start to react. There is zero logic to the reaction…it’s instinctive fight or flight, and very strong. Unless you run training simulations over and over again to build the muscle memory of a desired reaction, you don’t know what you will do under threat.

My theory is that Securitas failed to train their security guards when and how to evacuate the building. If they were also responsible for maintaining the alarm and security camera systems, that would have been another critical point of failure.

>>>>>Edit: I have read comments from alarm professionals who say that it is common for a system alert to wait two minutes before triggering a call to 911, in order to allow for human intervention to reduce false alarms. If this system was designed that way, it makes me wonder if the deck collapsed just before 1:15…maybe just before 1:14:39.