Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part IX 10

[dik]

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-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

...maybe a sign of the future? Spain seems to be motivated. Their weather of late has been pretty terrible, too.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/com...-for-a-9-hour-work-day/ar-AA1btyKB?li=AAggNb9

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Transparent solar cells...

If the cell passes light, what is its source of energy?

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I believe the economy of scale factors in a lot more than we think. For example, gasoline prices in 1920 were $0.30 per gallon which is the equivalent of $10 today. Demand for gasoline is certainly higher today than it was in 1920.

Okay, I think I understand what you were saying now. Essentially, when the industry sees a strong and long term demand for an item, they do what they can to increase supply (because of the profit margins they're getting). They are able to reinvest these products into greater and more efficient means of producing their product.....

Th long term result is that the prices will go actually go down. Though this genuinely isn't a guarantee. It is dependent on the producers being able to operate in a relatively free market. This never really happened in communist countries. Did it? What happened the supply never really matched up with demand. You were always in a situation where the supply was inefficient. They might make a boatload of shoes of one particular type and size. But, they didn't make the boots that farmers needed. Or, they didn't make the sizes that women needed. There was no incentive for those supplies to get where they needed to go or be allocated the way they needed to be. No one had a profit incentive. Only in the black market was there an incentive to take risk to make a profit.

You see other cases where an 'in demand' product is completely replaced in the market with something less expensive to produce. See what's happening to coal now. See what happened to lamp oil, whale blubber, Block Buster Video, DVDs, CDs, et cetera.

 

[SnTMan]

Transparent solar cells...I just can't see it.

(LOL)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[dik]

79% transparent...

"Solar panels have long been criticized for their appearance, with some people arguing that the large, opaque panels spoil the look of homes and businesses. But now, a group of researchers has developed a highly transparent solar cell using a 2D atomic sheet that could change the perception of solar energy. These near-invisible solar cells have an average visible transparency of 79%, which means that they can potentially be placed almost anywhere, including building windows, car front panels, and even human skin.

Scientists have been trying to develop transparent solar cells for years, but suitable materials have not existed until now. To create the solar cell, the researchers controlled the contact barriers between indium tin oxide (ITO), one of the most widely used transparent conducting oxides, and a monolayer tungsten disulfide. They coated various thin metals onto the ITO and inserted a thin layer of tungsten oxide between the coated ITO and the tungsten disulfide.

"The way in which we formed the solar cell resulted in a power conversion efficiency over 1000 times that of a device using a normal ITO electrode," said Toshiaki Kato, the corresponding author of the paper and associate professor at Tohoku University's Graduate School of Engineering."

We'll have to see... like so many other things... I thought it was useful information. I don't know the conversion from solar energy to electrical energy to know how efficient current solar cells are. Can anyone provide the data?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Good solar cells are in the 20% region for light to electricity energy conversion.

The 1000x efficiency listed in the article is likely starting from a baseline efficiency of nearly 0%.

I can imagine an application where this technology will be useful. It can replace window tint, maybe reduce heating load by converting some absorbed light into electricity. But, it's never going to be useful for generation as it passes too much light energy being transparent.

 

[rb1957]

1000x 0% = 0% ... just sayin'.

what is the efficiency of a "solar cell using ... a normal ITO electrode" ?

But sure, solar cells are getting more efficient ... at the cost of more elaborate raw materials.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

One of the challenges in rooftop solar panels is that they're always "on". Meaning that they're producing electricity whenever the sun is out even a little bit. Therefore, there are lots of safety considerations related to getting electrocuted or such. I know fire fighters have a big concern about this.

I think this is reasonably controlled with rooftop solar as they are very visible and you have visible and distinct connections in certain locations that fire fighters can be cognizant of.

That being said, I wonder how this is handled with Elon Musk's solar shingle type of roofs. Anything that looks like a regular roof could be at least a little problematic.

https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/solar/solar-shingles-buying-guide/

Now, if we start using any window surface as a solar panel, then this could certainly be an issue. What happens if the window gets broken? Say someone throws a rock through it. Could this produce an electrical short that could start a fire or such?

Not trying to crap on what is a truly interesting concept. Just pointing out that, as interesting as it is, there is a big gap between the early stages of a technology concept and when that concept becomes commercially viable. Just like with Fusion reactors. Excellent tech ideas..... But, years from being fully developed.

 

[BridgeSmith]

there are lots of safety considerations related to getting electrocuted or such.

I thought most solar panels output low voltage electricity.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

BridgeSmith -

I remember an article on this subject a number of years ago. Long before I ever considered having solar on my house. But, I don't remember much of the details. I know there were concerns and objections from firefighters in particular. I don't know if it was worry about an individual panel, or related to where the combiner box or transformers are located.

And, I don't know if the concern was "electrocution" (which was implied in my previous post) or the potential for it starting or feeding an existing fire. Or, even related to concerns about panels affecting the fire rating of a building.

Honestly, I should know more about this.... It's not like me to pay so little attention to the technology I've put on my house. I should probably have done some more homework before posting.

That being said, my desire was to demonstrate that the placement of an individual solar panel is actually a small part of the project. Having enough panels to generate a large amount of electricity is the goal. And, the process needed to invert that electricity from DC to AC and the ability to wire it through the house to the junction box or transformer or such is no small task. We've pretty much got that process down with roof top panels. But, we've got a lot of space up on the roof, and in the attic that isn't used for much else. It will be different when we start talking about doing that for windows and doors that move and can be more easily damaged / broken.

 

[dik]

It's just another possible venue for 'green' power... I have no idea of where this will go. In the coming decades, there will likely be a couple of 'false starts'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I have no idea of where this will go. In the coming decades, there will likely be a couple of 'false starts'.

More than a couple.... But, that's innovation. We've got 350 million people in the US. And, I have no idea how many companies.... Any one of which can take a financial risk and get a gain or a loss from it. Sometimes it's a small risk, sometimes it's a big risk. Sometimes it's a small loss or gain, sometimes it's big.

But, this is why the US is so innovative. Because the market and the system is set up in a way that encourages these types of risks. Look at how MicroSoft, Apple, Xerox, Facebook, Google and such were formed. The founders took risks. They innovated in ways the big companies didn't want to do and they became huge. Same thing with virtually everything Elon Musk has ever done, Pay Pal, Space-X, Tesla, etc.

 

[TugboatEng]

It's just another possible venue for 'green' power... I have no idea of where this will go. In the coming decades, there will likely be a couple of 'false starts'.

They're all trying to be the next Solyndra.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Honestly, if you look at where we are now compared to where we were in 1973 when I was born, we should all be incredible proud of the innovations we've made as a country. For Example:

a) Virtually, every lightbulb in my house is an LED. Using something like 1/10th the amount of electricity. And, not generating any heat.
b) Similar savings for the types of TV's we have now vs those we had back then.
c) Our energy efficient fridge, dishwasher, clothes washer and such use maybe 25% of the electricity that the same appliances would have used back then.
d) Our cars get better gas mileage and emit a lot less pollution.... Though this will get even better when the next care I buy for my family is a hybrid.
e) My house has energy efficient windows most everywhere keeping the heat in during the winter and the heat out during the summer.
f) I work from home and barely drive now. Granted, this isn't a net gain over my parents because my Dad worked and my Mom stayed home with the kids. Whereas I work from home and my wife probably has a similar commute to what my Dad had back then. But, being able to work from home with Zoom meetings or MS Team meetings and such is HUGE.

Isn't it insane how much advances in efficiency we've made in just 50 years?!

 

[dik]

Great Josh... how much more there is to go... and what damage has been done in those 50 years might be considered, too.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Great Josh... how much more there is to go... and what damage has been done in those 50 years might be considered, too.

One of the problems I have personally with Gen Z is that they have no perspective. They think communism / socialism will cure our problems for some insane reason. Really?! Have you studied history even a little. Do you have any idea the way the poor people lived in ANY of those countries that tried it?!

They think the disparity between rich and poor in the US is the worst in history. They call our society "end stage capitalism". Really? All the homeless people I know have cell phones, full stomachs and they live this way by CHOICE. The poor people in this country, for the most part have it better than rich people did 500 years ago.

They think race relations are as bad as they've ever been. Yeah, right? They think that having to show an ID to vote is genuinely racist and a huge civil rights violation.... like "Jim Crown on steroids" (though that comment was fed to them by an octogenarian).

They have no perspective. Pretending that society is headed in the wrong direction is comical if you have perspective.... unless you talk about how INDIVIDUAL rights are being trampled on for the preservation of "collective" rights.

 

[GregLocock]

"I thought most solar panels output low voltage electricity."

Each solar cell produces the gap voltage for its chemistry, about 0.6V for Si. To get usable voltage from them they are assembled in series, so for example my off grid solar runs strings of 140 cells, to give 80 V open circuit. When producing max power the controller drags this down to about 80% of OCV ie 64V, so the panel can hold my 48V battery at 60V for conditioning. I can assure you that 80V is enough to give you a fair old bang if you are clumsy, even on a cloudy day.

However for on-grid installations you need to comfortable exceed the AC voltage you want to generate, and for a given power the wiring gets smaller the higher you go. So my on grid house has 300V panels, ie about 500 cells in series. 300V will end all your worries about climate change.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[BridgeSmith]

The poor people in this country, for the most part have it better than rich people did 500 years ago.

Our adoption facilitator, a man with 30 years of splitting time between the US and Haiti, told me that the poorest people in the US have a standard of living that would be considered upper middle class, bordering on rich, in Haiti. We were only there for a week, but that seemed about right to me. Granted, that was 15 years ago, but AFAIK, not much has changed.

 

[dik]

Human suffering...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01132-6

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BridgeSmith]

Humans have been suffering for numerous reasons, including the climate, ever since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. "Climate change" is just the current boogieman used as an excuse for people to pretend they care. The greatest source of human suffering is other humans - by far more direct means than the changing climate.