Things are Starting to Heat Up Part VI 10

[dik]

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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[0707]

Living beings since they appeared on earth are carriers of bacteria which product cyclic viruses that evolve in parallel with climate change, some of those living beings are extinguished, by men action, and its extintion, by hummans guilty, origenates other viruses, as a never ending story.

 

[CWB1]

I don't understand how you can both continue to piss up this rope.

The rope must be wicking.

I'll need data before making judgements about explorer & native deaths. Just a reminder that we're entering the two deadliest months for the elderly thanks to exposure to grandchildren during holidays.

 

[rb1957]

"The sharing was mostly one way..." ... yes, Europe had the advantage of being several weeks voyage from North America, so much of the infections literally died out. Still the new viruses had a significant impact on the Europeans exposed to them.



"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[TugboatEng]

At what point do we accept the infections as inevitable? Should explorers never have made contact? Should North and South America be cut off from the rest of the world like the Sentinelese?

With the benefit of hindsight, there were some deaths due to new virus exposure but it wasn't existential to the races.

 

[rb1957]

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[dik]

He's got it wrong... "You cannot push on a rope!" I actually think you can... you just reduce the effective pre-stress...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SwinnyGG]

With the benefit of hindsight, there were some deaths due to new virus exposure but it wasn't existential to the races.

Uh.. the primary virus that europeans brought over literally destroyed multiple entire civilizations. Completely erased them from the earth.

I'm not in this ridiculous 'ice cores will kill us all camp' but at least get the history right.

 

[TugboatEng]

Can you provide a source for such a claim? Google is all over the place with numbers ranging from tens of thousands to 90% of the total population. Semantics matter here. The sources claiming genocide like to use terms that group viruses and violence. It's very reminiscent of COVID deaths.

And now that we've witnessed modern science's total failure to prevent transmission in of viruses can we really accuse much more primitive generations of maliciously spreading endemic diseases?

The real takeaway here is that the world would be better off if the Europeans had encountered the indigenous Americans earlier, before their immunity had such time to diverge.

 

[dik]

There was an article on that in a TVO educational series titled 'Origins-A History of Canada' about 50 years back. The population of the Natives was diminished from 6 or 8 million to several hundred thousand.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Why did that happen? Our history books love to tell legends of native American warriors. How did they earn such skills and reputation? Perhaps they practiced on other tribes?

 

[dik]

...or maybe that's the way we'd like to see things, instead of maybe an ugly truth?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

What is more ugly than a bunch of tribes in perpetual war with themselves? The white man unknowingly spreading viruses amongst the natives would be the less ugly truth. Whatever, in the times of revisionist history, there are no truths. Even the Wayback Machine is controversial in this modern day.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Can you provide a source...had such time to diverge.

No one said anything about genocide, or conflating any of this with 'violence'. The historical record is extremely clear. Your attempts to cloud the point are also clear.

The Aztec, Mayan, and Incan civilizations were decimated by smallpox, to the point where their populations were practically eliminated and their cultural norms and practices were erased. They were wiped so clean that even though these events happened less than 500 years ago, major physical structures were completely lost and started being 'rediscovered' in the 1800s. This is a set of facts that are not really under any reasonable dispute at this point.

 

[TugboatEng]

The Aztec, Mayan, and Incan civilizations were decimated by smallpox,

That's simply not true. It's not known what wiped out their populations. Smallpox seems to be removed as a possibility. It might not have even been a virus.

On Monday scientists swept aside smallpox, measles, mumps, and influenza as likely suspects, identifying a typhoid-like “enteric fever” for which they found DNA evidence on the teeth of long-dead victims.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...er-scientists-discover-what-killed-the-aztecs

 

[SwinnyGG]

For fucks sake go READ that article and not just the headline

a smallpox epidemic killed an estimated 5-8 million people in the immediate wake of the Spanish arrival.

A second outbreak from 1576 to 1578 killed half the remaining population

And even then... your point is that... a different european-introduced pandemic is what killed them?

You are off the reservation and you don't even see it. At this point I almost feel sorry for you. Endemic ignorance is impossible to fix without an open mind, which you clearly don't have.

 

[TugboatEng]

You seem hyper focused on the European introduced aspect. That is indicative of a closed mind. I enjoy finding alternative information. For example, I don't think any of us knew that salmonella was the final straw that brought down the Aztec empire.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/unearthing-the-secrets-of-the-aztecs/

"The duality of war and agriculture was crucial for the Aztec economy."

"When the Spaniards came, Tenochtitlan had approximately 200,000 people. It was one of the world’s largest cities in the 16th century."

If the Aztecs had an agricultural based economy and the largest cities it's possible they developed their own strain of salmonella that wiped them out.

https://www.science.org/content/article/farming-gave-us-salmonella-ancient-dna-suggests

By settling down in close quarters with domestic animals and their waste, they gave Salmonella enterica, which was lurking in an unknown animal host, easy access to the human gut where it adapted to humans.

 

[dik]

Swinny... play nice.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SwinnyGG]

Swinny... play nice.

This is playing nice.

Identifying ignorance isn't personal. It's a simple statement of fact. Both of you are clearly motivated to disregard any information that doesn't suit your particular narrative - neither of which appear to be based in any form of abject truth.

It's dissappointing.

 

[dik]

Not to disregard, but to look at the material and re-evaluate my own considerations if nessary, or to reinforce them.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[rb1957]

"Not to disregard" ... that's the same as "with all due respect".

reinforced by "but".

can we agree that viruses change over time ?
that new viruses evolve for which we have no immunity ?

can we agree that our immunity changes over time ? Smallpox is reemerging as a threat because we immunised against it, but now we're not ('cause it essentially disappeared) but now it's reappearing (as we lose immunity but not vaccinating our children).

then isn't possible that the permafrost contains viruses for which we have no immunity ?
not that this is an existential threat to our population, but it is a possible hazard.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.