Ukraine Nuclear Power Plants 9

[bones206]

Nuclear power plants are not designed to operate in war zones. What can be done to proactively shore up the safety systems of these plants in Ukraine?

Assuming Russia permitted the international community to bring equipment on-site uncontested, is there anything that could be used in a pinch to augment emergency power systems etc? When I got out of the nuclear industry in 2016, there were a lot of projects in the works for this type of “beyond design basis” scenario in response to Fukushima.

Hopefully IAEA is already being proactive about this and working in a contingency plan, but I’m interested in hearing thoughts from our community here.

 

[RedSnake]

And here comes the Ua propaganda.
I hope.....

#Ukraine's intelligence services claim that #Russia's president Putin allegedly gave an order to stage a security incident at #Chernobyl NPP, captured by the Russian forces on 25 February, and to blame the incident on Ukrainian forces.

https://twitter.com/AlexKokcharov/status/1502256837516795909

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Here is some good reporting on the Zaporizhzhia attack:

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/11/1085427380/ukraine-nuclear-power-plant-zaporizhzhia

Seems IAEA has been downplaying, which tracks.

 

[RedSnake]

And the whole text..

https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-ato/3426555-putin-gotue-terakt-na-cornobilskij-aes-rozvidka.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin is preparing a terrorist attack on the Chernobyl nuclear power plant.
According to Ukrinform, the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine announced this on Facebook.

According to available information, Putin ordered the preparation of a terrorist attack at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. The Russian-controlled Chernobyl nuclear power plant plans to create a man-made catastrophe, for which the Russian invaders will try to shift responsibility to Ukraine.

"Currently, the Chernobyl nuclear power plant is completely disconnected from the monitoring systems of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). The station is de-energized. The resource of available diesel generators is designed for 48 hours of support for security systems, "the statement said.

The Ministry of Defense notes that the enemy refuses to provide access to the station to Ukrainian repairmen. Instead, "Belarusian specialists" went there on the instructions of Alexander Lukashenko. Among them, under the guise of nuclear power, Russian saboteurs also come to organize a terrorist attack.

At the same time, in recent days, Putin's troops have struck at the Zaporozhye NPP and the Kharkiv Institute of Physics and Technology (where the experimental nuclear reactor is located).

"In order to imitate the involvement of the Ukrainian military in the Chernobyl accident, the occupiers are trying to create fake" evidence "to confirm their version. In particular, Russian automobile refrigerators collecting the bodies of dead Ukrainian defenders were spotted near the Antonov airport in Gostomel. There is a possibility that they will be presented as killed saboteurs in the Chernobyl zone, "the Ministry of Defense said.

That is, without receiving the desired result from the ground military operation and direct talks, Putin is ready to resort to nuclear blackmail of the world community for the sake of concessions in support of Ukraine, the GUR stressed.

"Currently, Ukraine, the world, and Russia itself understand that the statements about Ukraine's involvement in the creation of a nuclear threat are just a talentless scenario. Nevertheless, such actions by Putin will have catastrophic consequences for the whole world. It seems that this is exactly what the Russian dictator is counting on, demanding unacceptable concessions, ”the Defense Ministry's GUR said.

As Ukrinform reported, Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba at a meeting with IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi on March 10 insisted on Russia's immediate withdrawal of troops from the Chernobyl and Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plants to prevent a nuclear catastrophe in Europe.

Chernobyl was captured by Russian troops on February 24. ZNPP has been under the control of the Russian army since March 4.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

So far just about every prediction concerning what BSCrazy.ru will do next has come true. We now know that every word he speaks is 100% lies. Meaning everything he doesn't say has a far greater probability of happening. The elephant in the room is, will the Poles go rouge if that event happens? Where lies the straw that breaks the camel's back. We seem to be drawing ever closer to finding out, as BSCrazy is pushing every one of NATO/Western World buttons he can find. It's going to turn into the chicken game very soon, if its not already.

It's bringing back bad childhood memories of the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.

Current probable DEFCON STATUS
5
4
[highlight #000000] 3 Current Defcon Level probably at 3: last issued 9/11/2001
Forces can deploy and mobilize within 15 minutes. [/highlight]
2 Last issued for SAC forces only, Cuban Missile Crisis 1962
1 attack imminent, never set

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[RedSnake]

Well now when he have had the Russian air force go thru Ukraina to bomb Belarus, maybe he have put the nuke planes on hold for a wile.
Luckily Lukashenko was in Kreml for a meeting..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[AutisticBez]

Why was the military stationed at the Z NPP? You'd think that perhaps this was a bad idea? Also what was the outcome? Russia says 200 surrendered, weapons cache and orders to fight to the last man. You think logic prevailed? And they surrendered because they realised the Russians were serious? Could have been worse. What are the rules of engagement at an NPP?

 

[RedSnake]

Every country with a defense plan have a set of protected object which includes nuclear plants, all kinds of power station, water supply, data and tele kommunikation, everything that is needed to be able to defend the country from a invader in case of a war.
So of course there where soldiers there.

Russia says 200 surrendered, weapons cache and orders to fight to the last man.

There is no logic in believing Russian propaganda.

What are the rules of engagement at an NPP?
Have no idea.
But my guess is defend it as long as it safe.
The Difference here is that the protectors at least knew what they where defending and the risk involved, that can't be sade about the invaders.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Why was th[tt]e military stationed at the Z NPP?

[/tt]

I don't know that to be true. All NPP have significant security forces 24/7. I haven't seen reports that the people defending the plant were outside military forces.

You think logic prevailed? And they surrendered because they realised the Russians were serious?

We may find out what happened some day. It does seem like someone did manage to deescalate the situation somehow, but I haven't seen any reporting on that. I did post a video upthread that showed a plant operator over the PA system telling the Russians to stop firing at the plant because they were endangering the whole world.

What are the rules of engagement at an NPP?

There are none. Nobody ever envisioned this scenario or made an effort to create a global consensus on warfare and NPP's. I'm sure many people actually did fret over this over the years, but were brushed aside as alarmists standing in the way of industry and necessity. If that scenario was taken seriously, the industry would have been forced to admit that NPP's are vulnerable in warfare and nothing could really be done to mitigate that. One thing about the nuclear industry is that it's always keen to minimize perception of risk and tamp down fear, even when those perceptions are based on legitimate concerns. They spend a lot of cash on PR...

Besides, I think the concept of rules of engagement in general is meaningless. People are capable of utter stupidity and horrific acts of barbarism, and there's no magical rulebook that is going to stop them - as we have all painfully witnessed over the last 15 days.

 

[1503-44]

"Why was the military stationed at the Z NPP?"

Because outside the bounds of US, EU, and very few others, the military guard anything and everything. Ports, refineries, important industrial sites, pump stations, banks, empty royal palaces, central plazas, airports, train stations, major traffic circles. They may look like police, but don't be fooled. Most foreign military force comes in many colors and all of them are focused on protecting the ruling party from domestic threat, rather than protection against external threats.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[TugboatEng]

I'm in Mexico right now. I can confirm that the military is regularly on parade in the small towns.

 

[RedSnake]

Ohh on vacation?

Well we do have security guards at our NPPs, but if a war broke out there would be a military defense line too.


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

https://t.me/verkhovnaradaukrainy/9453

Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
✔
Чор ️‼ ️ Electricity supply restored at Chernobyl NPP!

Today, thanks to the incredible efforts of Ukrenergo specialists, our nuclear power plants and electricians managed to return the power supply to the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, which was seized by the Russian occupiers.

At the risk of their own health and lives, our Ukrainian energy sector was able to avert the risk of a possible nuclear catastrophe that threatened the whole of Europe.

Now the cooling systems of spent nuclear assemblies will work again in the normal mode, not from backup power.

I emphasize that the Chernobyl nuclear power plant is an object of Ukrainian energy, and we do not need any help from anyone to provide or restore electricity supply to our facilities.

Yes, our power engineers are really heroes, but it is impossible to ensure nuclear security in the conditions of military aggression by the feats themselves.

That is why I appeal once again to our international partners, the European Commission, the IAEA, the UN, the OSCE: help us protect nuclear facilities! It is now imperative to force the enemy to leave the nuclear power plant and establish a 30-kilometer demilitarized zone around Ukraine's nuclear facilities.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

The people working in those plants and repairing the power lines… I just can’t imagine what they are going through. Chernobyl is considered one of the most challenging and complex sites on the planet in normal times, now add war and hostile takeover on top of that. To be able to endure and carry on is absolutely heroic.

 

[AutisticBez]

The thing is, if your military isn't capable of preventing the enemy reaching the NPP, then what good is trying to wage a battle at it? I think that what happened was Russian troops said "surrender or else", maybe a few shots to prove they meant business. Troops at the NPP surrendered. Minimal damaged occurred.

I think there is an attempt to paint Russia as crazy and there is an inability to see key planned moves as strategy. How else does an invader take a NPP? You have to admit the site was fairly undamaged minus a building fire, shelled gangway, damaged power lines.

Aren't these reactors a safer reactor?

 

[RedSnake]

The thing is, if your military isn't capable of preventing the enemy reaching the NPP, then what good is trying to wage a battle at it?

First of you want know what capability you will need, until you know what you are deling with.

I think that what happened was Russian troops said "surrender or else", maybe a few shots to prove they meant business.

It wasn't Russian troops that took it, it was Tjetjenien elit forces The Kadyrovites.
In Tjetjenien there ain't any NPPs and this paramilitary groups usually don't have any higher education in facilitating Nuclear plants.
Since there main business is kidnapping, torturing and killing people.

Troops at the NPP surrendered. Minimal damaged occurred.
How else does an invader take a NPP? You have to admit the site was fairly undamaged minus a building fire, shelled gangway, damaged power lines.

Yes since the attackers clearly didn't know where they where shooting at, the ones inside did take the responsible steps necessary to avoid a catastrophe.

I think there is an attempt to paint Russia as crazy and there is an inability to see key planned moves as strategy.

Putin is "crazy" period..
He has lost it..
And he isn't the one micromanaging every detail in this war.
Do you think he would have sacked 8 generals and 2 inelegancy chiefs and put them in house arrest if he had things under control?
He has no control over what happens on the battle field, and his ordinary gun-fooder the Russian soldiers have equally as little knowledge on what they are shooting at as the rest, they didn't even know where they where going and in some parts they have destroyed the telecommunication so that there own commanders can use there own encoded communication they need to use Ukrainian SIM cards to phone back to Russia to report on the none progress.
Does that sound like some who is in control of anything?

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Apparently Russian troops have again damaged the power lines and Chernobyl is back on diesel power.

 

[RedSnake]

And they are blowing up ammunition inside Zaporizhzhya

According to NNEGC Energoatom, the Russian military blew up part of the ammunition on the site of the captured Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant.
As Ukrinform reports, this was reported by Energoatom's press service in the Telegram.

"And they plan to continue carrying out explosions at Europe's largest nuclear facility.

During the explosions, personnel left their jobs.

What other terrorist attacks are needed for decisive action by partners, including the IAEA??"

As previously reported, Energoatom warned of the invaders' intentions to blow up ammunition at the ZNPP.
Russian troops captured ZNPP on the night of March 4. The station was stormed by an enemy column, which consisted of about 100 units of equipment.
Three servicemen of the National Guard were killed and two others were injured in the assault.
The other day Rosatom representatives, including former Ukrainian nuclear power plants, arrived at ZNPP.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[LuK13]

Why was the military stationed at the Z NPP?

I'm from a small New England town that had two coal fired plants. Post 9/11 they shut down the roads that lead to the plants and had armed national guardsmen with Humvees at the gates. Coal fired power plants in a small town no one has heard of. I think it is reasonable that a country would try to protect its critical power infrastructure in the face of an invading army.

 

[bones206]

I still think NATO should be planning and staging quick strike teams to secure these plants and bring in supplemental equipment for if/when the situation gets critical from a nuclear safety standpoint.

They’ve had time now to plan and prepare, so I hope they have been quietly doing so.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I feel it's pretty safe to say they are absolutely not planning for that.

Any NATO personnel crossing the border, for any reason, will without a doubt be used by Russia as a justification for declaring war on NATO. This would legitimately be world war 3. Globally, that's a lot worse than localized fallout from a problem at one of these plants.