Ukraine Nuclear Power Plants 9

[bones206]

Nuclear power plants are not designed to operate in war zones. What can be done to proactively shore up the safety systems of these plants in Ukraine?

Assuming Russia permitted the international community to bring equipment on-site uncontested, is there anything that could be used in a pinch to augment emergency power systems etc? When I got out of the nuclear industry in 2016, there were a lot of projects in the works for this type of “beyond design basis” scenario in response to Fukushima.

Hopefully IAEA is already being proactive about this and working in a contingency plan, but I’m interested in hearing thoughts from our community here.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Reckon Hospital number 6 is going to get full rather quickly. The area they were staging in Belarus was the contamination hot zone. And they are meant to have had 20k troops in that area in Ukraine

Oh and they have taken another Lt Col out.

 

[1503-44]

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That means there's no more generals?
"Old soldiers never die", must be a .ru proverb.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They have 13 left out of 20 original ones generals that is.

 

[bones206]

As expected, IAEA director Grossi is doing nothing by being in Ukraine, apart from taking advantage of photo ops. He’s even going to one of the nuclear plants that isn’t under threat, presumably to make it look like he’s “on the front lines” to the general public who wouldn’t know which plant is which. What a joke.

 

[RedSnake]

I do understand him, even if the Russians would give him accesses to the occupied NPP:s Chernobyl and Zaporizhzhia, nothing the Russians say can be trusted.
I wouldn't go near them if I was him.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Sure, he has the right to self preservation, which is why he waited several weeks until the situation was safe enough to go in and get some action photos "on the ground", like some kind of hero swooping in to take control of the situation. But it's all just a show. Really disingenuous.

 

[Nukeman948]

The IAEA director went to Ukraine to gather information. That is all he can do. He doesn't have an army to expel the Russians nor the legal authority to resolve any of the issues they cause at these nuclear sites.
Seeing this as an opportunity to bash the IAEA director for not doing more is what is really disingenuous.

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[bones206]

He can gather information by phone, email. There is no need to physically be there to communicate. People who need to have their photo taken constantly to show that they are doing something, are generally compensating for their lack of substantive results. I was hopeful that IAEA would play a constructive role in this crises, but so far I see only role playing and PR stunts.

 

[Nukeman948]

First you thought it was good for him go there to get things done and now you think he could get things done over the phone?
Send him an email telling him how to do his job. He'll appreciate that as much as we do.

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[1503-44]

I wouldn't be totally surprised if there was "friendly fire" involved.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[bones206]

Yes I was optimistic and supported any efforts. But so far it’s been far too performative and shows the limitations of the IAEA. There is clearly a huge gap in the safety nuclear power when it comes to armed conflict. Poland just this week is announcing plans for new builds, while at the same time NATO is boosting troops in Poland in preparation for potential armed conflict. It’s just willful disregard for the facts of reality - the facts that we are in a new era of armed conflict potential and NPPs are a huge liability.

 

[bones206]

Not to mention, the deputy director of IAEA is Russian. He may have a slight conflict of interest, just a guess.

 

[Nukeman948]

...the deputy director of IAEA is Russian. He may have a slight conflict of interest, just a guess.

"Rafael Mariano Grossi (born 29 January 1961) is an Argentine diplomat. He has served as Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency since December 3, 2019. He was formerly the Argentine Ambassador to Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia and International Organizations based in Vienna (2013–2019)".

Has Russia annexed Argentina or are you just making up whatever propaganda fits your agenda.

 

[phamENG]

Pretty sure the "Deputy Director" and the "Director General" are not the same person.

bones is probably referring to Mikhail Chudakov, Deputy Director General and Head of the Department of Nuclear Energy since February of 2015. He's very much Russian. Also very much a Deputy Director, as bones said.

Link

 

[bones206]

https://www.iaea.org/about/organiza...ector-general-of-department-of-nuclear-energy

I don’t think I have an agenda. Just really concerned with what’s going on and I’m trying to follow it closely as the potential impacts are massive. I’m not worried about being personally exposed to radiation from an accident in Ukraine, but I do have many friends and family in Europe and Asia to worry about, and I generally care about the fate of all peoples.

 

[RedSnake]

The sade truth is that the only ones that can secure the situation in any way right now is Kremlin at best, and they have no intension of putting any effort into that at the moment.
They have there hands full with trying to destroy Ukraina and lie there teeth off.
And there isn't much IAEA or Rosatom can do about that, no one have the guts to tell Putin something they do not think he would like to hear.
You can't even talk about the "war" without facing great fines or jailtime.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Nukeman948]

Sorry. I missed the "deputy" part.

The IAEA is an international organization with members from all over the world that have the same concerns and interests as all of us no matter what country they come from. They want safe efficient controls on nuclear power but there is no method for them to enforce anything on any country. They can lobby and make suggestions but their powers are limited. They are not the enemy. We all agree that a major release of contamination is the last thing we need.

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[bones206]

I guess my overarching point with respect to IAEA is that they are quite powerless (as you say also). I suspect the goal of all this PR is to try to retain their credibility and image as an influential international organization, in spite of the facts on the ground revealing their lack of influence.

The big blinking red light for me is that we are really ALL quite powerless in this situation. So we have to formally recognize that NPPs are vulnerable and that armed conflict is a plausible design basis event. There is no authority that can step in and avert disaster. The question then is are we comfortable living in a world where this scenario can play out and all we can do is sit back and watch in horror with our fingers crossed?

It looks like we have narrowly escaped a worst case scenario so far in Ukraine, but looking forward I think we need to sort this out.

 

[phamENG]

bones, I agree. This represents a paradigm shift. We are not in a post war world, though most alive today don't have a memory of anything else. Yes, there was the cold war and regional proxy fights, but no "war." There are many things that need to be reconsidered - safety and vulnerability of nuclear plants is certainly one of them.

 

[Nukeman948]

The big blinking red light for me is that we are really ALL quite powerless in this situation.

War is what we need to prevent. The uneducated conscripts dug trenches in the Red Forrest because they had never heard of the Chernobyl Disaster and their leaders didn't tell them.*

If a mad dictator wanted to blow up the Three Gorges Dam in China, the floods would kill many thousands of people and it is said it would stop somewhere around 15% of the world's manufacturing. If we did away with all nuclear power plants they would just seek out chemical plants or dams or some other high risk target. The United States uses dry cask storage just outside our plants. Potential giant dirty bombs all over the country because the anti-nuclear people didn't want to allow us to reprocess the used fuel or put it underground at Yucca Mountain.
Yes, in many ways, we are really all quite powerless.

[sub]*From reports of Russian troops arriving at hospitals in Belarus with radiation sickness on 30/3/2022. This story has not yet been confirmed by major news outlets.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...active-dust-chernobyls-red-forest-2022-03-28/

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