Ukraine Nuclear Power Plants 9

[bones206]

Nuclear power plants are not designed to operate in war zones. What can be done to proactively shore up the safety systems of these plants in Ukraine?

Assuming Russia permitted the international community to bring equipment on-site uncontested, is there anything that could be used in a pinch to augment emergency power systems etc? When I got out of the nuclear industry in 2016, there were a lot of projects in the works for this type of “beyond design basis” scenario in response to Fukushima.

Hopefully IAEA is already being proactive about this and working in a contingency plan, but I’m interested in hearing thoughts from our community here.

 

[MartinLe]

I don't understand where Hydrogen should come from. My understanding is that hydrogen forms > 800°C in the presence of water and zircaloy. So is the ssumption that once cooling fails, it takes 7-10 days for the spent fuels to become hot enough to form H2? Or is there another process at play?

 

[IRstuff]

The fuel rods are already hot, but the coolant water circulation removes the heat and keeps them from getting too hot.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[RedSnake]

The Swedish Radiation Safety Authority estimates that the power outage will not lead to any radiological emissions in a couple of weeks.

- The power outage today does not entail any radiation safety consequences for humans or the environment, either in Ukraine or in Sweden, says Jan Hanberg, unit manager at the Swedish Radiation Safety Authority in a press release.

If the power outage lasts longer than that, the cooling of the basins where spent nuclear fuel is temporarily stored needs to be solved in some way, according to SSM

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[IRstuff]

It's weird that the Russians cut the power, given the relative proximity to Moscow

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[bones206]

I found this study, which looks relevant. Have not had a chance to read it all:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Hypothetical_Fuel_Uncovery_Accident_Scenario

 

[RedSnake]

It's weird that the Russians cut the power, given the relative proximity to Moscow.

They have no clue what they are dong, it isn't planed..

I would say that the big risk is in Zaporizhzhya where one reactor still is running.
There where a lot of talk about it being taken by Chechenia special forces The Kadyrovtsy islamists.
I haven't been looking for anything, that confirms that though.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

It's weird that the Russians cut the power, given the relative proximity to Moscow

You think these idiots have a plan? I doubt anyone is even telling Putin what's actually happening on the ground at these plants. IMO they are all acting semi-independently and there are no political or military leaders who have a full picture of what's happening on the ground or what the potential consequences of their actions are. Even if Russian nuclear experts have reservations, they have established a climate in which nobody may dare say anything that could be construed as negative to a figure of higher authority. It's a homicidal bull in a nuclear china shop.

 

[1503-44]

Chechnians might just carry that crap to Moscow themselves. There has to be a few that are carrying a grudge. More effective than a bomb vest.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Relative to the threat to Moscow, the prevailing winds are from the Northeast to the Southwest, which would seem to say that it's places like Romania and Bulgaria, as well as Western Ukraine, that would bear the blunt of any release of radiation.

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Irvine, CA
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UG/NX Museum:

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It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[phamENG]

It's weird that the Russians cut the power, given the relative proximity to Moscow

This is a home cooked conspiracy theory, so don't believe it:
Allow Chernobyl to blow its lid again - it already melted down once, so it can't be that bad and reach Moscow, right? The Ukrainians were a bunch of ill equipped and unsupported pushovers, too...right? But it will be bad enough. And so they get two benefits: a propaganda coup to show their people that the evil westerners and Ukrainian "nazis" blew up a nuclear power plant and they knock out the #5 world wheat exporter by poisoning their fields, allowing them to grow their lead as #1 and take on several billion dollars in wheat export business...because the world isn't going to stop buying their wheat, of course.

 

[IRstuff]

Given the state of war in Ukraine, wheat harvests for the next couple of years are probably FUBAR.

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[MartinLe]

Wheat harvests in Ukraine, and fertilizer exports from RU and BY.

 

[RedSnake]

There might be sunflowers oil though as the Ukrainian lady sade to the Russian occupants. Go home or put sunflower seeds in your pockets, so there will grow sunflowers, when you are dead!

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

I don't understand where Hydrogen should come from. My understanding is that hydrogen forms > 800°C in the presence of water and zircaloy. So is the assumption that once cooling fails, it takes 7-10 days for the spent fuels to become hot enough to form H2? Or is there another process at play?

I am nowhere near an expert on this stuff, but I believe the process at play is known as radiolysis, and is the likely source of the 10 day increase in hydrogen concentration referenced in the report.

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_fuel_pool#Risks

Radiolysis, the dissociation of molecules by radiation, is of particular concern in wet storage, as water may be split by residual radiation and hydrogen gas may accumulate increasing the risk of explosions. For this reason the air in the room of the pools, as well as the water, must be continually monitored and treated.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Imagine the breadbasket of Europe, the most fertile soil rendered unusable for agriculture for generations. Imagine having a daily radiation level feature added to your phone's weather app, and having to shelter in place for weeks at a time until levels are safe enough to venture outside. The consequences go far beyond just the immediate fallout and could change the course of human civilization. I don't think I am exaggerating the situation.

The worst case scenario here is certainly not good, but it's nowhere near what you're describing.

 

[1503-44]

An optimist in our midst.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[RedSnake]

A reminder..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Swinny- I hope you are right. I guess it’s the fact that multiple plant sites are under threat is driving my imagination towards these extreme outcomes.

 

[RedSnake]

Count to ten and take ten deeeeep breaths.
It usually helps. ;-)
You are at least on the other side of the globe..
If someone should be worried it should be me.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[dik]

We have friends, in Romania, 5 km from the Ukrainian border; they are concerned, too.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik