Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9] 2

[dik]

thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]

Looks like Boeing is still having fun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Sparweb]

OK I did have to track it down. Not so silly as it sounded at first. A moment of thinking also helped.

EASA has separate rulebooks for different types of balloons. Tethered balloons ARE at risk in strong winds, therefore they must have wind speed instruments on board at all times. This is to protect the tethered balloon (and occupants) if wind speed increases. Consider not only the stress on the tether and the balloon bag, but on the suspension lines, too. And consider the moment of landing a tethered balloon in a strong wind... bumpy.

As we all know, free hot-air and lifting gas balloons follow the ambient air motion while flying. So in steady flight, the wind speed is zero. Having a wind speed instrument sounds redundant, right? But, that's assuming they don't have propulsion of some sort. Then airspeed applies again. And a free hot-air balloon is usually loaded and launched from a tether, therefore it starts every flight as a tethered balloon, meaning it DOES need an accurate measurement of wind speed to launch safely. Safety during landing also plays a part in the need to know wind speed.

So like many aviation things, what seems at first to be unnecessary, turns out to be essential to safe operation, once you know enough about it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's reasonable, but originally it was for all including commercial hot air free roaming balloons. Which was a bit silly. They are not tethered when launching only ballast and there is an anemometer present. While they fill the envelope. And the basket starts off horizontal then relatively late on gets turned to vertical.

It was originally a pitot airspeed requirement not a weather station style wind vector display which I believe is now normal. As I say it came out, the piss taking started and it was removed in a matter of days. Sounds like they have completely reworked that section. I must admit outside CAT ops fixed wing i really have very little up to date knowledge. That period I still had a FI and a national CofA and permit aircraft flight test authorisation on SEP class aircraft and a few sub sets. Since I allowed them to lapse mainly due to cost I have no requirement to keep that knowledge area current. And it is utterly colossal and changes regularly. I can only imagine what's happening in the UK now they have left EASA, the CAA had basically stripped out all its technical competence to EASA years ago and became a licensing issuing authority on the aircraft side of things.

I have helped at a launch a couple of times its actually extremely interesting. But I wouldn't exactly call it fun...

 

[RedSnake]

I wonder what regulations there is for this kind of aircraft?

Merry Christmas everyone. [santa2]

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

This time of year there are various things happen in various circles which would normally be frowned about for being immature.

NORAD for years have done an excellent Santa tracker

They go to serious effort with it as well.

https://www.noradsanta.org/en/

 

[Lou Scannon]

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[rb1957]

The BEA seems to be coming out with reports about the Ethiopian accident (according to Flight) ... pointing the finger (in part) at crew training.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Yep, it's a fair call, there is multiple issues with everything. As with all aviation accidents.

Ethiopian is deemed to be actually 1st world with training and has all the kit to do it. Air France is 3rd world with all the kit.

In this case the OEM was preventing training due contractual penalties and compulsory training with type ratings.

The whole reason why this developed is extremely dirty and the customer is at fault as well.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

But pro Boeing die hard's are still determined that the aircraft was safe and it wasn't.

You will never change that opinion.

But after reading it, the point they are making is 100% correct. But it also crosses over to the crew reactions in AF477 with the unreliable airspeed and stall recovery.

 

[1503-44]

Dejavu

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/united-777-plunge-takeoff-hawaii/index.html

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[hokie66]

What say ye, Alistair? I like B777, but...

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Human error its not the first time its happened. And its an error which not only occurs on the 777.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

spoke to my FO today about it, and he is ex EK cabin crew and has mates that fly them.

It might not be what I thought it was which is; there is an altitude selector which is usually set for the cleared departure max alt while doing the flight deck setup. If there has just been a reset it defaults to zero. Normally when we turn the power on we set it to 4900ft or something like that to remind us we haven't got a clearance but its not going to be zero. If you don't and you miss it then after departure engage the Autopilot it will then try and take the plane to 0. With 4900 set it will take you to that but at least its not going to point you at the ground. My view is the default should be 9900 after reset but that's way above my pay grade.

Generally we have a standard method of arming everything for departure. For A220 we set everything up then press TOGA buttons on the thrust levers and then NAV and then VNAV. Then check the primary flight display that the relevant modes are armed and it looks right. If its wrong we select stuff again.

Apparently the 777 if you get the sequence wrong it can look right but its not actually armed to capture the set altitude and it defaults to 0.

Now after take off the flight director does indicate for the plane to descend if you get it wrong and your meant to check on all types that your Flight director is indicating your planned flight path before engaging the Autopilot. If you doing one thing and its pointing somewhere else you continue flying manually and ask the other pilot to sort it out. Which is pretty easy, just select a basic vertical mode and horizontal then engage it.

This feature of the 777 has been know about since it was released and it may be the cause if its not the leaving the alt select on zero. These issues are highlighted during ground school, type simulator training and line aircraft training.

Just to satisfy my feelings of fairness. On the A220 they have has a series of pilots hitting the wrong button to arm the auto thrust and selecting the Autopilot which is the button above it. This then causes the aircraft to rotate at 90 knots and have a tail strike. They have changed the procedures now that if its not engaged by 80 or kicks out we reject and sort it out if its an auto thrust required departure, which is 99.9% of them.

So each type will have some gotchas that you know about and have procedures to protect against.

But this fixing of snag is very dependant on the OEM and certifying authority. Boeing and FAA have history about allowing the risk to be mitigated by pilot procedures so no system changes are required. Others are not so. I am hoping with the A220 that the Canadians are going to required a software mod blocking the autopilot being engaged below 400ft rad alt. So if someone presses the wrong button it just gives the autopilot disconnect audible warning and that's it. That sort of mod would take a couple of years to do and then be certified so the procedures will have to do until then. But as they are serious talking about an A220-500 now I expect it to be sorted.

But that sort of stuff and process is definitely sparwebs skill set and knowledge base not mine.

 

[1503-44]

Altitude defaults to zero seem to be somewhat of a red flag.


Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Colossal which is why we always have something in the window. We normally know what the clearance is going to be in advance and put it 100ft lower until we receive it and confirm it. But 4900ft does the trick if we don't. Most aircraft have a max altitude for take off under 10 000ft so 9900ft as a default would seem sensible to me.

But this is an avionics OEM issue and certification not airframe I think. There may well be reasons why it can't be done.

The setting of this to 4900ft is part of the setup up flow after shutting down on stand. Its normally done before the pax have even finished deboarding and both of us check the other has done it and if its been missed we just change it. But even if its not done it will stay the same as the go-around altitude from the previous approach which will be at least 1500ft above the airport not zero. Its also a handy reminder that we haven't collected the clearance yet.

 

[1503-44]

I have this feeling that just won't go away. Now that the mcas system is certified safe, they're free to call this human error and send the crew for additional training. I guess I just won't be boarding any Boeing product for the foreseeable future.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's why I mentioned a220 issue they all have something.

I wouldn't avoid Boeing.

 

[hokie66]

Avoiding Boeing would prevent access to lots of places. I know, because I avoid Airbus.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Is there many airbus in Australia?

 

[hokie66]

Oh, yes. Qantas uses some. Its budget Jetstar is all Airbus, I think. I think most of the other international carriers use at least a proportion Airbus. Virgin Australia only has B737’s now. Not sure what the smaller ones fly.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I only know Boeing drivers in Aus.

Seems there has been 3, it always seems to happen in three's, near collision incidents in the FAA's responsibility area so they have launched a safety review.

The cynical Scotsman in me thinks its main objective is to show that its not the FAA's fault but we shall see.

Oh yesterday while dealing with some German putting a digger through a fibre optic cable and someone in the Lufthansa Group think it was ok to only have 1 internet connection to its main operational centre.... I thought of another thing that might have happened.

They could have selected flap up before they were going fast enough.