Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9] 2

[dik]

thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]

Looks like Boeing is still having fun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[dik]

If the FAA allows them to fly, considering "Pressed by European and Canadian aviation regulators, Boeing agreed to two system enhancements that will be introduced on the MAX 10 that significantly improve the crew alerting system. However, the model still doesn’t meet the latest FAA standard." does that make the US government liable for any crashes? Just curious what happens when an uncertified plane crashes...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It won't be allowed to fly anywhere unless the FAA certifies it. It holds the base certification. The others approve it on the top of that for their registrations.

 

[dik]

Thanks, Alistair...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is also a load of mods needed to the 8 and 9' which they are meant to be doing the certification during the 7 and 10 process.

Personally I think it would be safer for everyone if the politicians just granted the extension now so every thing can be done properly without time pressure.

Instead of using it as political point scoring pissing match.

 

[FacEngrPE]

The legal side of the equation is heating up again.
October 21, 20229:21 PM EDT, U.S. judge: Passengers in fatal Boeing 737 MAX crashes are 'crime victims'

 

[dik]

It's going to heat up again:

"A federal judge in Texas ruled on Friday that relatives of people killed in the crashes of two Boeing 737 Max planes are crime victims under federal law and should have been told about private negotiations over a settlement that spared Boeing from criminal prosecution."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Passengers-families-deemed-crime-victims.html

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

As an aside Airbus and Airfrance are going back to court over the AF447 crash.

 

[dik]

Thanks, Alistair... I thought these were over and done with... there's a good chance the FAA will get drawn into it because of their lax efforts with Boeing. Never a dull moment.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I think faa was only involved due to it holding the primary certification of the engine's.

This will revolved around Air France and Airbus.

It was a totally recoverable accident. Some would say it was pilot induced. If they had just taken the automatics out and kept everything as it was they would have survived.

But we shall see what comes out. The families, air France and Airbus all have very powerful connections.

I might add the original technical cause was sorted quiet quickly afterwards. Unsure airspeed and stalling was already mandatory in the three year training cycle.

It has the potential to get quite messy but maybe another 10 plus years before it's finished with.

 

[dik]

The rules changed, I understand and that the FAA had little oversight with Boeing.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

In some ways the faa has had things stacked against them for years.

Much like the mobile phone issues they are not the final arbiter of all things aviation. Political influence has a huge role. But the faa is left carrying the can when things go wrong.

In some ways the AF case is the culmination of 30-40 years of issues as well with political input.

The Concorde investigation and court case is a prime example how things can go if there is anyone else that can be blamed.

Over weight, tailwind, poor airport management procedures... Nope it's all deltas fault.

This one it's french OEM, french crew, french operator, and French casualty's. Nobody else involved.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

my monthly check of the excellent Seattle Times. Seems an extension is on the cards for the 10.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...-boeing-737-max-safety-retrofits-europe-will/

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And apparently the 7 and 10 are getting an extension with conditions on the 8 and 9 which will infuriate a lot of operators. Due yet more retraining and possible separate type rating from the NG which is how this whole thing kicked off.

 

[dik]

Good article Alistair... The FAA has dramatically changed over the last few decades, to the point is should be scrapped and a proper agency put in place. It is that, or my earlier perception of the outfit was wrong.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The upgrade stuff is a bit strange to be honest.

The being able to turn the stick shaker off has been an on going battle between regulators and pilots since the 60's. All planes this side of the pond have to have it. Boeing, FAA and FAA pilots have been determined that having a CB pull is all that's required. Quite where they are going to put the switch is anyone's guess. I presume down next to LH pilot knee where the power system for it is. The lengths though that have been gone to to say its not require is quiet bizarre. One person even went to great lengths of working out what 0.5kg of system would work out with fuel over the aircraft lifespan. Personally I have had to turn off the stick shaker system 3 times in 20 years. In those cases we continued to destination where as if we couldn't it would be a land immediately. It really is a colossal distraction.

But basically EASA and others are saying it not going to fly unless you can do it via a switch so that argument is blown.

The artificial AoA display again isn't something commercial pilots are trained to use. Quite what your meant to do with that I don't know.

Pitch plus power equals performance is the way we are trained to deal with it.

 

[dik]

Is EASA not in close contact with pilots and/or pilot associations for direct input?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Not really its turned into a political monster as well.

So yes they tick the boxes for industry stake holders but in realty they go with what the airlines and OEMS want.

There are occasional out right ignoring, the more than one cabin bag is case in point. Basically the politicians hijacked things to force through that they could take as many bags as they want into the cabin. And were completely oblivious to technical EASA, pilots, cabin crew etc that there was no physical space in the aircraft cabins to put 3 bags for each pax. This stupidity caused a feeling of dread every time I saw Brussels on my roster on a Monday or Friday on the Q400. The A220's bins don't have the same issue thankfully. BUt then again after COVID not as many politicians are doing the full week so the load is spread.

The classic case with EASA was when they regulated that all commercial hot air balloons were required to have an airspeed indicator.

All the problems with the MAX predate EASA and JAR to be honest. It was all national CAA's when the NG went through.

And the AoA gauge is not a EASA requirement. It was only that there was a voting system to spot AoA failure to disable the auto trim. It was a upgrade airlines could have paid for prior to the crashes but very few did. It was meant to be working on the crashed aircraft but there was software issues. I susepct most pilots would ignore it anyway and just go for unreliable airspeed procedure which is set a pitch and power and keep it in trim. Of course the crash crews had something else changing the trim.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

This stick shaker isolator has been been a colossal willy waving exercise. I suspect there was only maximum 20 people that actually really cared about it to stop it. And most of them must be dead now. There was a huge fuss about it when they shoe horned the NG certification through.

MAX they weren't changing anything they didn't have to hence the 1960's AOA sensors and system.

There was also having a stick pusher system fitted as well which is part and parcel of the setup. Mandatory with most CAA's pre JAR and FAA was requiring them to be disabled as part of the import compliance. The 737 300 onwards has a stick pusher i think, quite how this fits in with the changes i have no clue.. I have always had a button to kill that as well. Never need to use it though. FBW doesn't have a pusher.

 

[Sparweb]

The classic case with EASA was when they regulated that all commercial hot air balloons were required to have an airspeed indicator.

That's worth a giggle. I wonder if I can track that down. Would you remember if you heard about it in an operating rule or an airworthiness rule?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Airworthiness unfortunately, mandatory instruments to be carried.

It wasn't around long after the piss taking started. Around 2005 I think. It was that lovely period that people were flying on JAR pilots license, national AOC's, EASA medicals and a dirty mix of maint requirements while they sorted part M out. Thankfully I got my ATPL before the major shift to EASA.