Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9] 2

[dik]

thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]

Looks like Boeing is still having fun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And some more regulations coming in... Us pilots and cabin want a secondary door to the cockpit. Which they claim will stop terrorism.

The fact that everyone blocks the galley with carts before the bullet proof door is opened is not enough. They want a lockable perspex door which I predict will be permanently locked so the crew have the front toilets to themselves.

 

[JohnRBaker]

You mean a sort of 'air lock' configuration, eh? Perhaps even where both doors couldn't be opened at one time. Not sure how that would play in the need to evacuate a plane in the an emergency. Of course, I would think that no matter what sort of emergency you had, the flight deck crew would be the last to leave the aircraft anyway.

When you first said a second door, I immediately visualized an 'escape hatch' type door to the exterior. Not sure what value that would be however...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It would need to be open for takeoff and landing and part of the cabin preparation for emergency landing. The cockpit door is always locked at these points.

There is an escape hatch in the front and cut in sections in the rear.

And you would think they would be the last but in many cases this isn't the case that the Captain stays with the sinking ship until all are off. Which to be fair if the fire practise we do is anything to go by you have zero clue who is left onboard once you have killed the power.

Certain nationalities and toilets and toilet fit always generate huge conflicts. A lot of the US cabin crew want and do reserve one toilet for crew only which to me is a bit unfair when it only leaves you with 1 or 2 for 150 people. They also run with the seat belt signs on all the time what ever the weather conditions. I might add i have seen it on US airways and delta but have never frown with ASW so it may be a legacy airline issue.

 

[1503-44]

Has not this terrorism thing gone too far.
The incident rate seems to be too low, even at high cost, to justify adding a door. Far greater cost than adding a second MCAS switch, which didn't happen because of extra costs, right?
Plus it would only affect those incidents where a terrorist, or "mental case" would want access to the flight deck. On a cost-benefit basis, that money is probably better spent in reducing school shootings.
And big bombs would still work.
Maybe they should write that down on a wish list and put it under their pillow?
Seems to me that, if you do this, the terrorists have indeed succeeded.
I'm all for as much safety as possible, but at first glance, definitely heading OTT.

TX/Republican gov solution would just be to have all pilots and crew carry guns.


Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Agreed 1503, Which is why I think its being driven by a desire to prevent pax going to the forward galley and toilet. The American unions have been trying for years to force USA airlines to have a crew only "restroom". Some longhaul aircraft which are set up for heavy crew operations do have them as part of the crew rest setup. But the short and medium haul there just isn't the space. 200 pax onboard and 50% of the toilets removed from pax use just because some geriatric old witch number one wants her own commode is unreasonable.

There is data from since 9/11 cockpit doors being fitted. They have also have a load of people in the front who can carry a hand gun. Which I might add has caused way more "safety incidents" than they have solved which isn't hard as its solved absolutely no incidents.

Realistically the mental cases people get very excited about also with trying to open hull doors in flight. Most of them are plug doors these days and in cruise it has 0.74 bar keeping in its hole on 2.5m2 of door. Crack on and try and open it, leave them alone until we get the plane on the ground and medical professionals can deal with them.

There is very few incidents involving them as well. Less than I expected.

And I would love to have kids visit the cockpit during the cruise again. Its what got me going on this career path when I was 11 years old flying to Rhodes on a 757.

Your meant to go stretch your legs every hour to help prevent DVT. I quite often end up in the forward galley with some young person asking questions about the plane. And then when on the ground they get to visit up front. Some crew absolutely hate it and consider it unprofessional.

 

[1503-44]

That's great. I still remember when I was awarded a wings pin during a flight deck visit in the 1950's, probably on a DC-4, which was also responsible for igniting my interest in aviation. I'd say just the opposite. Giving kids the inspiration they need to get interested in anything is highly professional.

I can't say I wouldn't want a private crew only loo these days. Probably more justifiable as an occupational health and safety feature. Terrorism doesn't have the numbers to back up that reasoning. And its already well overdone anyway.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[davidbeach]

Send the crew to the loo in the far aft. The trip will be highly educational.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Rear galley is a brutal work place. We have quite a few positioning flights with lots of crew onboard sometimes 4-5 sets which is 25 people. And they put us in the last rows. Sometimes causes grief though because some cabin crew want the place like a sauna and one of the pilots just goes to visit their mates in the front and turns the temp down and cabin crew only have -+3 degs to play with. the rest of the males on the flight are very happy. Cabin crew claim they are freezing when its 27 degs. Its to do with the air humidity and air movement when they are moving trolleys about. Most plane types suffer if the overhead gasper vents aren't open. I used to go down the Q400 cabin and open them all up when I accepted an aircraft.

Anyway flight deck won't want to go past the forward galley station for security reasons.

As for occupational health most food preparation areas have a toilet opening into them.

They have tried that argument before and failed.

It seems to be an American issue with unisex public toilets. What gets me is the number of pax that go into aircraft toilets in just their socks.

Seems the security card might do the trick this time though.

 

[JohnRBaker]

This one's for you Alistair...

While this is not directly related to the 737-MAX, it's still something that you'd think someone would have come-up with a way to prevent this from happening:

Plane fails to descend as pilots reportedly fell asleep during flight

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pilots-reported-to-fall-asleep-ethiopian-airlines/index.html

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is on some aircraft. But the 800 is the same as the max in that department. A220 doesn't have one. But there are loads of beep burps top of descent alerts etc.

It's usually sop, checking by cabin crew and cockpit etiquette.

There is a procedure called controlled rest for one person taking a nap.. Where cabin crew are informed and a few other things. Most people set an alarm timer on there phones/efb just incase the other person falls asleep and the cabin crew check on us.

There really is nothing happening in that part of the world in the cruise in the middle of the night You get 1 hour plus between nav points and ATC don't talk to you or anyone else.

The distances on a mercator chart at that latitude are colossal if your a high latitude person like we are.

 

[dik]

It's probably still more safe than a Tesla...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[LionelHutz]

There was a flight over the US where that happened a good 10 years ago and I believe maybe an Atlantic crossing flight a couple of years ago.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It happens reasonably frequently in some parts of the world. But usually the public don't find out about it.

Also loss of coms happens regularly, in fact I heard an interception today due to a coms mix up. Which costs big money if it turns out to be the pilots fault.

 

[IRstuff]

There was a flight over the US where that happened a good 10 years ago and I believe maybe an Atlantic crossing flight a couple of years ago.

Then there was Payne Stewart's plane

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

wherein everyone was supposedly knocked unconscious by hypoxia and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Alistair_Heaton]

That was the cause of the Helios crash as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

That era of pressurisation systems were a bit of a nightmare to be honest. They were through analogue controllers and it took a refined touch on the controls of them to keep things comfortable. A ruff twist of a knob could give you an abrupt 3000ft/min cabin pressure change which is agony if your not expecting it. And you watched them like a hawk if you had any sense.

Modern avionics/aircraft have a Automated emergency decent system the system. It is digital. Pressurisation you can run in manual mode if a tech issues is present, no real change to SOP's or system configuration. But they have the minimum MEL lifespan on them so you get 3 days to get them to a technician to get them fixed. That era of aircraft it was 10 days and the amount of reconfiguration and SOP changes created an accident waiting to happen and it often did. MAX has the same issues as its a major recertification change and would have triggered pilot sim training.

The EDS system is quite wonderful to watch in the sim. The cabin pressure decreases, it triggers it automatically sets target alt of 15000ft and speed protected decent mode power comes off and you start decent. The rubber jungle comes down in the back and it changes the transponder to squawking 7700 which lets ATC know you have a problem. TCAS and mode S change mode to emergency so other aircraft know your not playing and they have to resolve any conflict. And it automatically triggers a PA to the pax telling them what to do with the Jungle drop down masks etc. If its not pressurisation issue which has triggered it automatically, but a pilot button push then it will sort that out as well to give max 1000ft/min cabin pressure change even if it gives a temporary pressure limitation of the hull. There is a risk of implosion with rapid docents but they have some form of 2 envelope limitations which the pressurisation can use but pilots can't which keeps peoples ears safe. There is an unlinked protection system which will protect the hull from a ultimate limitation bust but its just a simple sprung loaded inflow valve and if your going down at 6000ft/min that's what the cabin will do. I might add this is not for the pax if a pilot blows an ear drum out their mental capacity and ability is severely down graded. 4 mins after its triggered from 41 000ft your at 15000ft at a safe speed with full protections high speed and low speed. The next generation they are going to add terrain protection off the EGPWS so it will step decent you over anything higher than 14000ft.

On the A220 so far its never been triggered for real outside Airworthiness and delivery test flights. Our tech pilot says its even better than we see in the sim watching it in real life. And feed back from ATC tracks show an extremely smooth stable profile with minimal fuss. Which manual emergency docents sometimes get a bit aerobatic with speed. In fact we are told to manually press the button if we need to do an emergency decent and let it do its job. I think a couple of of manual trigger docents have been performed for real on the A220 but as they were none events no accident reports exist for them.

Due to the main line Airbus models groups being of 1980's vintage they don't have the EDS but the A350 does. There are a few Biz jets certified in the last 10 years which also have it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

First it was pilots being asleep in the cockpit, now we have a couple who were throwing punches:

Air France Suspends Pilots After Mid-Air Disagreement

The altercation happened in June on a flight between Paris and Geneva, and the pilots have been removed from active flying.

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-suspends-pilots-mid-air-disagreement/

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Lou Scannon]

Brings new meaning to the phrase "Fight or Flight"

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

lloks like the max 10 is utterly screwed now and into political nonsense. feel really sorry for the Boeing labour force making them could be a lot out of work at xmas.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Is this what you were referring to, the Max 7 getting certified before the Max 10?

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32082-boeing-737-max-7-max-10-certification-report

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

i am on about the 10

if its not certified by 1st of jan then the cockpit needs upgraded to 1980 standards and not the 1960's which it currently is. this is a major differences which will require a new type rating for pilots and technicians so nobody will touch it.

Without it in the max fleet production and basically everything else will become so uneconomic over night it will in the same league as nuclear war for boeing. It will basically wipe out all profits since the 60's for the 737 fleet in one swoop and turn it to a loss making product line. And that's not even touching on the bonuses paid to people running the fleet. It will turn a 90 year lifespan profitable product into a loss over night and the fleet will continue to accumulate loss until boeing can dump the OEM support. When pre max it was a recorded breaking product line.