Building geometry 10

[hoshang]

Hi all,
Please find the attached image.
Do you think the proposed geometry acceptable regarding center of mass and center of rigidity considerations? FYI the red circle is the center of mass.

 

[BAretired]

The septic tank can be underneath the grade slab of the lowest floor. That is where septic tanks usually go. The stair on the left is only two flights to provide a second exit to ground floor from the parking floors. I am not aware that two sets of stairs are required in the upper floors of the building.

Which code requires 20% open area? Are you using mechanical ventilation? And if not, why not?

The left stair is 3 flights.

What did you mean with that comment? And why three instead of two?

How do you intend to meet fire separation requirements at the car lift? I think it will require a firewall on each side plus a fire rated door on the inside face, similar to an elevator.

If you intend to stick rigidly to all of your original design constraints, hoshang, the site is just too small.

 

[hoshang]

Which code requires 20% open area?

This is a municipality requirement in our area.

What did you mean with that comment? And why three instead of two?

I meant three flights and two landing:
[URL unfurl="true"]https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1704567464/tips/ezgif.com-gif-maker-2022-06-05T142548.146_pl9bya.webp[/url]
The left stair is for emergency. For the left stair, if you count the number of steps in the OP and observe the height of floors, you'll find out that two flights won't be enough.

 

[ThomasH]

hoshang
Do you think that the original parking layout that you gave meets all the constraints? I think that it fails on a very basic requirement, you should be able to get each car into and out of the parking independantly of the other cars.

Now I have played a little with this. I started with the ideas from dik and BAretired. You will need to move the columns in B2 and B6 and you can't have both the red-marked and the green-marked cars. But I would say that the location of the lift is not good. If you could move the lift, and the septic tank, that would open up the space.

The layout is not ideal but I think it shows some of the problems you have.

 

[rb1957]

how does a car turn off the lift ?
Whatever layout you think works should be put to the test in full scale.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[hoshang]

You will need to move the columns in B2 and B6

Appreciate your reply. In your attached image, you removed B6. If B6 isn't there, the slab will be supported by A2, A5, A7, C2, C4. Isn't it a Big slab?

If you could move the lift, and the septic tank, that would open up the space.

Agreed. My thought is that if the septic tank is moved to the dead area in the left side beside your lower red line, that would open the space. Not aware where the lift should be move. Do you have an opinion on this?

 

[ThomasH]

Appreciate your reply. In your attached image, you removed B6. If B6 isn't there, the slab will be supported by A2, A5, A7, C2, C4. Isn't it a Big slab?

In my figure column B6 is hidden by the lower red car. It's fairly close to a wall so it might work without it. But if you choose to have the red cars you can probably move them further down and add a column at B5. If you go with the green cars and skip the red this won't be an issue.

Agreed. My thought is that if the septic tank is moved to the dead area in the left side beside your lower red line, that would open the space. Not aware where the lift should be move. Do you have an opinion on this?

The whole area between lines D and E is useless in terms of parking. I suggest moving the septic tank down beneath the building and moving the lift up towards line 1. That would open things up. I think you have shot that idea down due to constraints. But I agree with BAretired, if you insist on meeting all the constraints you won't get usable parking to the extent you want it.

If you are responsible for the parking layout you have some work to do. If somebody else is responsible than that person has some work to do. I hope you don't hope to find a solution on a anonymous Internet forum .

 

[hoshang]

Hi ThomasH,
appreciate your help. Please find the attached image:

Does this layout seem reasonable?

 

[rb1957]

how on earth do the two RH cars get there ? How do the two lower LH cars get out (or in) if the middle car (between B and C) is there ?

I think we all feel your pain, there seems to be no way to do this ... if at all possible it almost certainly needs to violate one (or more) of your constraints.

And none of this addresses your original question ...

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[dik]

Has anyone ever seen a septic tank inside a building? other than a treatment plant.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Trippelsewe]

Every job I've had like this has had a car stacker.

Why not consult with your colleagues and the architect?

 

[ThomasH]

Does this layout seem reasonable?

My short answer is, no. But I like the fact that you have started to try something yourself.

First, the car between B and C, Move it closer so C, otherwise the two lower cars between A and B won't get out.

Second, why don't you move the columns in line B. You might be able to get 3 cars between 1 and 2 if you move B2, and still keep the 3 between 2 and 6 if you move column B6 so is stands beside the septic tank. Better still, loose the septic tank.

And how are you thinking regarding the cars between D and E. For the current layout I consider that area useless, would you like to have you car parked there?

 

[hoshang]

Second, why don't you move the columns in line B. You might be able to get 3 cars between 1 and 2 if you move B2,

Where should I move B2?

and still keep the 3 between 2 and 6 if you move column B6 so is stands beside the septic tank.

Where should I move B6?

 

[ThomasH]

Move both B2 and B6 down in the figure to get more space between lines 1 and 2.

 

[BAretired]

Does this layout seem reasonable?

See below.

Column B6 can't move down or it will be outside the building on Ground Floor. Columns on sloping Gridline 8 have to stay on Gridline 8.

Car 6 blocks cars 1, 2 and 3. Car 6 cannot turn around easily. Even with car 6 gone, car 1 has difficulty getting out because he can't back into the wall.

Cars 4 and 5 project too far into the drive lane, making too tight a turning radius for incoming car X.

Cars 7 and 8 can't reach their stalls if the car lift requires firewalls on three sides (similar to the Elevator).

Stair 1 has more risers than Stair 2. The extra risers are not needed in the parking floors, but may be required in the Ground Floor.

 

[ThomasH]

If B6 can't be moved down, that kills my idea to some extent. I missed that problem. Like a colleague sometimes says, it is never to late to give up.

 

[BAretired]

I am also wondering about the concept of 20% "open" areas. I interpret that to mean that the areas shown crossed in the Typical and First Floor Plans have no slab. I understand this is a local municipality requirement. I question whether this is even possible, let alone desirable. But perhaps I am misinterpreting the local regulation.

 

[hoshang]

I am also wondering about the concept of 20% "open" areas. I interpret that to mean that the areas shown crossed in the Typical and First Floor Plans have no slab. I understand this is a local municipality requirement. I question whether this is even possible, let alone desirable. But perhaps I am misinterpreting the local regulation.

Maybe my mistake. Till now, I interpreted "lift" in your posts as the "lift" labels in my attached images. Maybe you assume the "car lift" as "lift" in your posts. I apologize. If so, maybe moving the "lift" back to gridline 1 a doable option (doesn't violate the local regulations) and may solve many problems. Isn't it?

 

[dik]

You do not want an opening between the parkade and the structure above.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BAretired]

Maybe my mistake. Till now, I interpreted "lift" in your posts as the "lift" labels in my attached images. Maybe you assume the "car lift" as "lift" in your posts. I apologize. If so, maybe moving the "lift" back to gridline 1 a doable option (doesn't violate the local regulations) and may solve many problems. Isn't it?

There are two "lifts" in this project, one for people and one for cars. Moving the car lift to Gridline 1 was suggested by dik on Dec. 30th, but Ground Floor access through Gridlines C and D would be compromised.

You do not want an opening between the parkade and the structure above.

How can you avoid it? The hydraulic car lift, the elevator and two stairs each create an opening between parkade and Ground Floor. Fire regulations require an approved separation in each case.

 

[ALK2415]

Dear all, if someone just do the design for our beloved friend hoshang, would be much stressful than keep discussion about it ?