European Energy Crisis 4

[SSCon]

The energy crisis looks like it's going to develop into a full-blown catastrophe, yet there is very little media attention. For those not aware, natural gas & electricity prices are at record levels and we're only one week into the "heating season".

UK gas prices reached £4/Therm, equivalent to $54/MMBtu (no I didn't misconvert that, but I'll understand if you feel the need to double check).

Electricity prices are at astonishing levels right across Europe.

Ireland seems likely to be the first to fail as they're at the end of the gas supply chain and currently have the highest electricity prices.

This winter Europe will be at the mercy of the weather, mild & windy and it may be ok. But if it's cold, the level of disaster coming is hard to conceive.

 

[1503-44]

Many of the "truths" one learned in school are anything but, and those are the ones they told you about.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I wouldn't say they were untruths. But the focus shall we say was different.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

On the energy note Poland which is 70% coal powered I suspect just triggered the start of it leaving the EU as well.

They will be particularly hard hit by EU energy policy.

 

[RedSnake]

This thing with them turning of the solar inverters If remember right you say they do it when there is to much power on the grid or/and when there is to little?


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[SSCon]

The EU are currently trying to shut down a mine/ power plant which supplies 6% of Polands electricity.

 

[RedSnake]

The main reason being it lowers the ground water levels in the area around it and off course the goal to fossil carbon at some point.

All the solitons are in place but it's hard to realize them maybe a total crash of the whole system is what is needed. :-(

One thing I realized which was a flaw in my thinking was that these pump storages which I believe will be a most since one problem is to preserve energi when there is to much of it and then use it when there is to little.
Is that there need to be mountains or height to be able to make them, and that preserving nature is often a hindrens.

But whit open mining or mines you really have half the jobb done.
Anyone who knows if this has been done somewhere?
Turning an old mind or open pit mind into a pump storage?
I mean the nature values has already been destroyed so it can only become better if it would be reused for that.



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

Anyone who knows if this has been done somewhere?
Turning an old mind or open pit mind into a pump storage?

If you count slate quarries, then Dinorwig fits the bill. Makes a really good visit (not the one my then early-teenage daughter and her school friend were expecting, but since it was lashing down with rain at the beach that day, they barely complained).

A.

 

[dik]

and for good reason... lignite is one of the worst coals for carbon footprint.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[RedSnake]

If you count slate quarries, yes I do ;-) a man made hole in the ground.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[LittleInch]

Thia lot seem to use something like that

https://www.quarrybattery.com/

Doesn't seem to be much progress though....

This lot are trying to develop something using some sort of "magic" fluid with density 2.5 times tha tof water. I can't find out what it is, but looks to be some sort of metal (magentite?) in a water mix. Again, great website, not much action.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

But it means things get a lot smaller and you can use lower hills.



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[TugboatEng]

Maybe a good way to recycle drilling mud? It's quite dense and pumpable.

 

[RedSnake]

hmm this RheEnergise company have this argument "or example there are so many more hills at 150m than at 375m."
True but our largest waterpower station Stornorrfors only have a fall height of 75 meters and the Dinorwig Power Station 65 meters.

That is good to know someone is thinking outside the box like the The Quarry Battery Company

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

zeus slashing it down with rain in wales Shock horror.... Is that one of those pump storage schemes like we have in Scotland that had shite loads of ground removed more than even remotely possible and then the claim nothing to see here governor . With a 60 ton road leading into the mouth of the beast?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

BTW Pump storage is nice in theory if you have a nuke near by. But in the reality the economics of it are extremely borderline if the Scottish ones are anything to go by. They are extremely good at peak loads for about an hour max but then it takes a nuke for the next 12 hours during the night to pump it back up.

 

[RedSnake]

Well the best us of them are to pump them up with wind and solar, when power generation exceeds demand.
Using powerplants for that, that are not flexible like nuke or coal mening you can't turn them on or of as fast or change the output after demand isn't smart, those kinds of powerplants are usually base power.
Then you need something to take the top loads when demand rises and to store in when you have to much power and even out wind and solar.

If your inverter gets turned of when it generats the most power because the grid can't take it, that is not smart..
Just because the only way they can use your solar power is to close down a coal plant which they want do because it takes to long to start it up again if they need more power.
Keeping it the inverter running would not be a problem if there where some other place to store the power.



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I have a way round them shutting me down.. But I suspect its illegal. It involves relay off the fault switch on the inverter which cuts the house off the grid. And then the battery takes the charge. It just leaves the freezer and fridge connected cuts the heatpump out etc. I can override it if I am home.

 

[RedSnake]

With home do you mean there at "summer house"?

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

1.7 GW for five hours is worth having. When built, I suppose the thinking was that it was conveniently halfway between Wylfa and Trawsfynydd, so a seven hour recovery was doable.

The haul road is pretty substantial but, after a century or two of slate quarrying in that valley, not especially out of place.

A.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Tom Murphy a professor of physics at the University of California, San Diego posted a paper to disscussing the size of the physics problem that energy storage is.
Pump Up the Storage
The paper was published in 2011, the statements seem to be approximately valid today.

The paper addresses the size of the grid storage problem in the US, For the purposes of discussion of this issue Grid US is approximately equal to Grid Europe.

The paper proposes that to fully balance an all renewable power source environment, risking rolling blackouts for capacity reasons once in 10 years, the storage needs to equal 7X of the portion of the load being balanced (a week of light winds or cloudy days, your choice if you want full or partial replacement).

The paper ends up by stating that for the US one not very practical way of providing for the entire US pumped storage demand is to use Lake Ontario as the lower pond, and the upper great lakes as the upper pond, The swing volume of the upper pond would be about 1m and the lower pond around 12 meters.

Please remember this paper is not intended to present a practical solution, just that this is not a small problem, We cant fix power storage by just by turning off dispatch-able power, and letting "economics magic" solve the problem.

I suppose it will take at least one more Texas sized power outage clearly related to the storage problem to get the attention of the political types. Then they might start discussing a better balance between the various green issues (ie what and how much dispatch-able power are we to have available. The demand for disposable power comes from reliability requirements, so a choice to let reliability suffer could also be made).

 

[1503-44]

Wind/Solar-Pumped Storage (WSPS) can be a ferfect solution, if it can be scaled to the size of the grid, or the grid can be scaled to the WSPS.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hierro+pumped+storage&t=brave&ia=web

Pumped storage is widely implemented in many localities in Spain. And sometimes not even coupled with RE at all. Water is pumped to the reservoir at night when electricity is cheap and then used to run the turbines during the day.