European Energy Crisis 4

[SSCon]

The energy crisis looks like it's going to develop into a full-blown catastrophe, yet there is very little media attention. For those not aware, natural gas & electricity prices are at record levels and we're only one week into the "heating season".

UK gas prices reached £4/Therm, equivalent to $54/MMBtu (no I didn't misconvert that, but I'll understand if you feel the need to double check).

Electricity prices are at astonishing levels right across Europe.

Ireland seems likely to be the first to fail as they're at the end of the gas supply chain and currently have the highest electricity prices.

This winter Europe will be at the mercy of the weather, mild & windy and it may be ok. But if it's cold, the level of disaster coming is hard to conceive.

 

[SSCon]

For a start, don't use Facebook. And linking articles fact-checking something I never said is rather pointless (but do keep on with the petty insults, it has the opposite effect you think).

That there is significantly less sun in the northern latitudes of Europe during Winter versus Summer is not a rumor. Actually, the article you linked to which fact checked something about snow says the following:

"The drop in solar energy production is likely not due to heavy snowfall blocking photovoltaic panels, but caused by winter's shorter days and overcast skies. This happens every year."

It does indeed happen every year!

Solar power is nigh on useless in northern lattitudes during winter.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I am further north than Poland and April to October I can get 65 kWh out of a my 8,5 kW inverter a day.With the wx good Usually over 1000 kWh per month.

We get power from the Nordic grid via DC interconnects but the frequency reference is russian I think that's going to change next year.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

If you interested my best winter day this year

And best summer day

 

[RedSnake]

The grey "network reference" is that your consumption ?

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's pull from the grid

Light blue battery charge

Green self consumption.

Dark blue battery discharge.

Orange feed into grid.

 

[RedSnake]

Okey so with twice as many batteries you would almost be self sufficient.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

No chance with a 8.5 kW heatpump running in the winter

That good winter day happens less than 5 times in three months most days you will be lucky to make 5 kWh. And it's due to be overcast cloud not snow on the panels.

The inverter puts the battery into storage mode after 3 days less than 25% charge. If it's a good day it will kick out of it. But for 3 months it's hibernating. And we produce less than 300 kWh a month.

 

[RedSnake]

The inverter puts the battery into storage mode after 3 days less than 25% charge.

You mean that it stops pulling power from the batteri not do damage it?

No chance with a 8.5 kW heatpump running in the winter

Well only just looking at does charts you almost could. ;-)

It would be interesting to se a chart where you run your 8.5 kW heatpump none of the charts above seems to have that outtake.

There where some calculations end tests made they come to the conclusion that 10 kWh batterie storage was the most optimal regardless size of house.

How much do you have 3-4 KWh?
I just made a graphic assumption from the charts..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They both do one in heating mode, other in cooling mode.


6.4 kWh battery.

When we are not there it can do the night.

 

[RedSnake]

Is that 6,4*0,75 = 4,875 kWh ?
My graphic eyes can't get 6,4 out of that graf. ;-)
Still think you should dubbel it.
Less to pay and now that UK is in Nord Pool who knows what will happen with the prices. ;-)

Okey I know you have fixed price so.. but anyway..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

No lead acid you can on go down to 50%

I can get 95% out of them.

They are not cheap and the 6.4 is borderline economic to pay back in its life time. If we were there full time it would be worth going bigger. But as we only use 60% when we are not it wouldn't pay for itself.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Well in Sweden today I predict your will get very little solar production.

 

[RedSnake]

just rain, rain, rain.....

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

Well where I live we actually has the most amount of sun hours per year around 1900 hours counted since 2017 in SE, most in the summer of course since it never gets really dark.
We usually are tp four in the "sun league" they have over the summer in the weather report but then we are not allowed to count the evening hours since it is cheating :-( because in the south of Sweden it gets dark so soon.

Not that bad compared to Europe either.

Maybe I should make a calculation for my summerhouse haven't bothered before I thought it would not pay off but who knows it might.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

You can probably make a useful amount of electricity, but if grid power is as low cost as the map above shows, and stays that way, the payoff may be elusive.

Its the same for me, but for the opposite reasons. With more than 2500hr of sun/yr here and latest grid prices over 200€/MWh, the payoff is assured, as long as you actually buy enough electricity from the grid to have something to make a price and savings comparison. With the therms that are inherent with 2500h+ of sun, we need almost no electricity for heating. With cool air temperatures, we need none for air conditioning. Our major consumer is the kitchen refrigerator. It's impossible to justify installing solar panels when consumption is so small. Our Internet package costs more than all the energy we use, including LPG for water heating and diesel for the car. I think its actually impossible for us to use less electricity, unless we pull the refrigerator plug go to the market every day.

 

[RedSnake]

You need to buy a electric car ;-)

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

Well in Sweden today I predict your will get very little solar production.

And you where 9 minutes to early!
Maybe Madrid have more sun hours today?
If that is where you are heading ..
According to the map they should have.

I think I will make a solarpanel calculation just for fun anyway, the worst thing that can happen is that I learn something..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's only the energy power cost. There is another few things go onto that price and then tax.

Start of this year I was 13 cents per kWh and now it's get near 20 cents.

I will be sticking in another 8.5kw inverter to generate more power credit next year.

 

[RedSnake]

What is the kW of your sun panels?

Right now I am just trying to see what the consumption is per month, average day, hour, min, max so forth..
And how much I pay.
It seems half or more of it is static cost grid and powerline and in total with the electricity.
Haven't goten to all that tax and other stuff, yet.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/pvgis

That one is 9.61

The second one is going to have 12 kWpv on it. It's the low days I need more surface area for