Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 44

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12


SF Charlie
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[Debirlfan]

I was looking at this video again, the lights are on in that unit on the 2nd floor, that's Unit 202 right?
Unit 202 was supposedly empty.

We know that another unit had a motion activated camera. It's entirely possible 202 had lights set up to come on with a timer as a security measure.

 

[Optical98]

Debirlfan and Nukeman,

Y'all need to add evidence of your varying "theories"...I provided evidence of a light being on at 1:00 am in a unit that should have been empty. This unit being directly above the generator room and ramp area, is of warranted interest in this investigation.

Prove me wrong..

 

[Demented]

That'd be our good friend Mr. Reflecto playing games with us. Or a ceiling mounted light fixture in the dining room, but I'm thinking more some angry turtle police, a badly aimed light pole thanks to some tilting, and a reflection.

If you want a rabbit hole to find your way down, I'd suggest looking around the K13.1 area and the concrete/pool make-over work done, as well as the parameter wall work. 2002-2006ish.

 

[Optical98]

Demented

No, I don't think so.

Here's the video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK-Fq9tKrrQ

The original was a few seconds longer, but I can't find it.

This is another view of the scorched wall before they removed it, and as you can see..it looks scorched all the way across that generator room floor. That rebar is hanging down...not sticking up like we see elsewhere.

 

[Demented]

The original

https://www.tiktok.com/@adrianitacastillero/video/6979296632919706886

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Demented]

Also, nah man or manette, reflection.

Edit: Now that I've looked at this light pole enough, it's pissing me off. Did Surfside public works do this or was the ACOE responsible for placing this when the beach access road was paved? It's crooked as all hell.

Edit again. See. Man, this irks me.
All nice and good looking here. And then

Bam, Ray Charles even inspected this one himself.

 

[Optical98]

Demented

There are many pics of remaining building that night, none of them reflect that way. Daytime reflections are not a good comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TspNufw2TCQ

 

[Demented]

Yeah but mirror tinted windows do what mirror tinted windows do, and that's act like mirrors, and blind the hell outa ya if you look at the sun just right. Reflections elsewhere will show differently elsewhere on the building. That particular spot and reflection is unique to that location. It does look like a light was on, I agree, but that's also right damn where the reflection of a street light would be. There's no way a cell phone camera is seeing a light on inside a unit with reflective coated or tinted windows, with the reflection of a street light being in a similar location.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Red Corona]

I can't tell any more what's a serious post in this thread ... but that definitely looks like the lights are on to me. But it's reasonable to assume they have some kind of automatic lighting. Perhaps it was even triggered by the noise or vibration of the deck collapsing.

 

[Optical98]

Red Corona

Owners knew there were security cameras all around that building and a security guard as well. Besides Unit 711, I've seen no evidence or reason for owners to have their lights come on in a condo they're not staying in.
I can't prove anyone was in there, but I hope the authorities will have checked into it...a simple call to the owner is all it would take.

 

[Nukeman948]

Debirlfan and Nukeman,

Y'all need to add evidence of your varying "theories"...I provided evidence of a light being on at 1:00 am in a unit that should have been empty. This unit being directly above the generator room and ramp area, is of warranted interest in this investigation.

What? That is not how the world works.
You implied something was nefarious about a light being on but never explained what could have been illegal about it. You're asking us to prove a negative? Seriously? All I'm saying is there is no evidence of a crime and the burden of proof is YOURS. We are just pointing out that there are simple explanations that don't point to a crime. My post also included some humor and sarcasm. You made the claim. I have no theories.

At first I agreed with you that there was a light on but now that I've seen what Demented posted, I can see it could have been a reflection. The burden of proof is totally in your court. Explain the sequence of events from a light to how this building ended up in a heap. How do you think the rebar got bent down and what does it prove? Do you think there was a fire before the collapse? Do you know how long it takes for a fire to weaken a reinforced concrete structure?

Can jet fuel melt steel beams?



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[Nukeman948]

I've seen no evidence or reason for owners to have their lights come on in a condo they're not staying in.

My parents had a timer on a living room light back in the '70s. It cuts down on crime by making it look like someone is home. Is that a hard concept for you?

Edit: You say there were security cameras? So the only people there were people that live there, so it was an inside job?

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[Optical98]

Nukeman,

Do you think the authorities would spend hours looking up photos of a street light and debating this vs calling the owner and simply asking them about it?
They don't need me to claim anything, I can go no further than I have.
I think that is a location of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned and I feel it's not an overreach to investigate whether someone was in that unit or not. Sara Nir thought she heard knocking somewhere above her, 202 isn't far from her... 202s kitchen wall with the stove is the eastern shear wall btw.

You're the great story créatif on here, not me.. I do enjoy them btw, I've chuckled at much of your humor ^^

 

[Nukeman948]

They don't need me to claim anything...

My humor is done.
You made claims here, not to the authorities.
On this forum.
Repeatedly.
But never posted any details of what you keep alluding to.
Back up your claims.

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[AusG]

lights v reflections, fires etc

The light is on, in my view. Yes, the wall is bathed in yellow glow from the street light and that room's window appears similarly bathed, but the adjacent one above is not. If the glow from the streetlight was the source I think it would show in the other windows, at least dimly.

In any case- That room is a long way from where that video shows collapsed pool deck (+ any number of interesting objects!). The pool deck has already collapsed several columns, the ramp and several car-spaces deeper into the parking area than this room. This video is 7 minutes before the general collapse of the first portion of CTS. What is supposed to be going on in this room that has (A) already collapsed a pool deck on the other side of the property and then (B) 7 minutes later initiates a building collapse in different part of the tower?

 

[Optical98]

Nukeman,

My claim...I never made a claim. I said there's a light on in unit 202, it's supposed to be empty.
The reason I was even looking at that video again was to look closer at the vents and the tank areas to see if there may have been smoke ...You know, I was looking at the scorched wall, remember?

There was no smoke apparent in that video. Demented and I both looked for permits for that unit and found none.
Though they are adding more documents and files to that site everyday...new ones posted even today.

So I can't prove anything ok? Idk why this angers you so much, you want me to give you a hypothesis?
I like it better when I add a picture and ask questions and you tell me about how the electrical faults and wires are supposed to work and the probabilities therein.

Because I don't think many of us on here have dealt with deconstructing a building collapse of this magnitude before and we can only get so far with any theory atm.

So Ima add another picture nao -

Just to note they took a lot of samples of that wall...no claim at all...

 

[Nukeman948]

I never made a claim.
I think that is a location of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned...

What angers me is dishonesty.
We all know that there were several fires after the collapse and you keep showing pictures of evidence of the fires that happened after the fact. But for many threads here you have been bringing up "locations of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned" and dropping hints that you think there was a fire before the collapse. You are searching for signs of smoke and anything else you can find to show there was a fire before the collapse. THAT IS YOUR CLAIM. Now you pretend to be just asking questions and playing all innocent like.
You have no shame.
You have no honor.
You won't admit that a fire in a generator room with 4 sprinkler heads would have never gotten so out of hand to cause this collapse.
And yet you insist on clogging up this thread with constant nonsense.
You can stick your pictures up your keyboard.


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[Demented]

@Optical98. They only released yet more copies of the original plans for the building a couple of days ago.
I do wish that were a light on inside, but I don't believe so. There's nothing here. Just a street light.


What if the sounds described as construction noises ands drilling was just the backup generator running and making an awful racket? We know at least one unit was experiencing an unexplained power outage.
That's at least more likely than midnight demo work of an out of date kitchen in a unit far away from the initial collapse of the deck we see past the unit in the same video that supposedly shows a light on.



Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[MaudSTL]

…sounds described as construction noises ands drilling…

Before we go back down this rabbit hole again, I would just like to point out that no collapse witness described having heard drilling sounds before the building collapsed. The Nirs in 111, however, did describe hearing sounds that they assumed to be construction, as in "knocking" (like hanging pictures) and a "smash" (like a wall collapsed.)

>>>>>>Edit:
In an effort to help this group avoid rehashing key witness statements, I decided to create a new reference in the Witness Timeline. It is a new swimlane diagram that highlights what witnesses heard in blue, and what they saw in red. It includes the observations of:
[ul]
[li]Elena Blasser, deceased, 1211[/li]
[li]Eric and Tamar Zion, 508[/li]
[li]The Nirs, 111[/li]
[li]Shamoka Furman, lobby[/li]
[li]Nico Vazquez and Gimena Accardi, elevator[/li]
[li]Ileana Monteagudo, 611[/li]
[li]Adriana Sarmiento, BlueGreen Resort[/li]
[li]Rosie Santana's Ring Camera, 711[/li]
[li]Angela and Deven Gonzalez, 904[/li]
[/ul]

I had to leave one swimlane off the diagram because I am making diagrams with a free version of a web-based product called LucidChart, and they limit the number of objects allowed per diagram. I ran out of objects (didn't even have one to make a Legend!) and had to make a call on what to leave out. I decided to leave out a deceased witness whose observations were duplicated by survivor observations. So I left off the late Cassondra Stratton from 410, who called and told her husband that the building was shaking and the pool deck had sunk in.

For your convenience, here is the swimlane diagram as a stand-alone JPEG.

The purpose of the Witness Timeline is to organize witness observations in an appropriate sequence for the convenience of engineers looking at contributing factors. Whatever factors contributed to the building collapse need to have occurred in a sequence that also correlates with what witnesses experienced.

 

[Nukeman948]

What if the sounds described as construction noises and drilling was just the backup generator running and making an awful racket?

A good thought process, but not likely.
It was an emergency generator not a back up generator. Why is that an important distinction? A backup generator may be expected to supply power to the whole building, including individual condo units. An emergency generator only supplies power to the emergency circuits. In this building that would be:
* One elevator.
* The fire pump Or the domestic water pump but not both.
* All the lights in the driveways of the parking level but not over the parking spaces.
* About 30% of the lights in the Porte Cochere.
* About 50% of the corridor lights.
* Stairways, exit signs, security and fire alarms.
* General access bathrooms, offices and similar rooms.
* Minimum lighting levels for rec room, gym, sauna, and sitting area.
* Anything I may have missed on this list.
Basically, just enough power to keep the occupants safe while they evacuate the building.
No power was available to individual condo units, HVAC units, or night construction crews.
Most places test run their generator periodically, once a month or so, but not normally at night.


Edit, for more better wording, 'cause some guys don't seem to get it:
A backup generator large enough to power that whole building for a storm outage would be the size of a locomotive. Then to power each unit individually on demand you would need to duplicate the existing power system of the building with a 3000 Amp bus to feed 12 floors and have a transfer switch and metering for each unit. By my calculations the existing small generator costs around $800 a day just for fuel, then add oil changes and maintenance costs for a guy that is too stupid to pay his bills? Ain't nobody got time for that, nor the money. They could use smaller generators, like one per floor, or one per unit. What a maintenance clusterfudge that would be. It'd be more betterer to go down to Homie Despot and get the Youtuber's discount for 136 homeowners models and chain them out on the balconys, Ghetto-R-Us style. Don't forget to pick up a suicide cord while you are there and skip the inspections. Are ya picking up what I'm layin' down yet?
The generator was not running. Period.

Whatever.



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