Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[Optical98]

Demented

How was that determined? I know there was a satellite photo of the kettle being left of the garage entrance during the day, but did it stay there overnight?

 

[Optical98]

Jeff Ostroff

There were posts of this area months ago on instagram. I chose not to share them because it was obvious where the location was and I didn't want to expose what was to be an undisclosed location. However, since then there was a video showing lots of the ruined cars, with close-ups of the first row off them. Don't be upset that there are plenty of these photos already online.

Also regarding the tar kettles, if you search back to July-August posts on here, Demented and I looked into the placement of them as thoroughly as we could at the time...until more evidence would drop.

 

[Nukeman948]

A fire alarm could have saved lives at Surfside tower. Residents say it didn’t go off

I can't see the article but the fire alarm did go off. Maude's timeline (Link) confirms the first call to 911 was from the alarm company and there is video of a strobe light still flashing in the standing part, powered by back-up batteries, after the collapse.

I thought we discussed how fire alarms work a while ago but... If an alarm is received at the alarm panel it only alarms for the floor it is on. After a time delay of up to 10 minutes a general alarm can then sound for the rest of the building if it is not reset. Some alarms can be programed to be silent for a short period of time to give building personnel time to investigate the issue before the whole building has to evacuate in the middle of the night for burnt toast.

I would assume this first alarm was triggered by sprinkler flow and fire pump running due to the collapse in the parking level. That type of alarm normally has no delay. Damage to wiring during the collapse would have likely rendered parts of the system useless from that point on.

Sig lines are for trolls.

 

[Demented]

Optical, from the location they were recovered from once we got more photos from one of the crane operators and the fact that they were recovered from above the parking slab and not under it. Still under debris but they were in the maintenance area.

Still a possibility one of the tanks did have a fire or explode but I think it was the Tesla that was on fire that the firefighters were working on in the similar vacinity of the garage.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Optical98]

The Tesla was parked along the southern wall of the garage, where as all of the smoke and fire damage seems to be along the northern wall.

 

[Optical98]

Question to those with any legal proceeding's knowledge, now that lawsuits have been filed. The unit owner's legal team should be able to subpoena the City of Miami for further security cam/video footage, right?

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Guys regarding the fire alarm, I am pretty certain that a silent fire alarm went off, not an audible fire alarm. So when the pool deck collapsed and cut through the sprinkler pipe in the garage and it was gushing out water, that loss of pressure likely set off a monitored alarm.

Now why it did not trigger an audible alarm is unknown, but we do know that right around 1:17 AM, the fire alarm monitoring service called Miami Dade emergency services 911, to tell them that they had an alarm tripped at the Champlain tower South, it is on my video of the 911 calls.

And sure enough, when you look at my video from August of the police bodycam videos, you can tell that even though the emergency lights were eventually flashing in the back when the cops peered over the pool deck wall, over the rubble pile, there was no audible alarm at that time from Champlain Towers South.

And what's ironic is that even though you can hear an alarm on the bodycam videos, some people commented they thought they could hear the fire alarm at Champlain Towers South, but what they were really hearing was the fire alarm from that little blue hotel right across the street where the tourists were staying because they evacuated that hotel immediately after the collapse.

Later on, in that video, you can see the police and the firemen go into the lobby of that hotel and the bodycam you can hear the alarm at full volume in the lobby and you can tell that it is the alarm from the hotel and not from the condo across the street.
Now regarding the roofer's kettle, it is not practical to lift one of those heavy things all the way up to the roof with a crane you would have to do it every day and you don't want to leave it up there. So what they do is they often pump that tar up there through these hoses into a smaller portable type of tank on wheels that they can roll around the roof and empty out as they need to.

 

[MaudSTL]

Here’s an archived version of the Miami Herald’s “Seven Minutes to Collapse: The last stand of Champlain Towers South. Computer model, witnesses reconstruct the tragedy.” It is missing some images. This piece focuses on conclusions by a hired engineer who built a collapse simulation that has yet to be posted.

>>>>Correction: The witness story doesn’t seem to be behind the paywall. See if you can open The collapse reconstructed: Ten witnesses describe what they saw and heard which include a number of time stamped images. I found just one detail to update the Witness Statement spreadsheet: the Nirs parked in Space 14. I will update accordingly. We still don’t know which spaces the Zions and Velazquezes parked in.

>>>>Edit: Finally Shamoka Furman gets some well deserved credit. I hope she gets help with her PTSD. One of her friends told me in a YouTube comment that she can’t work.

>>>>>Edit 2: Once again, they ignore the banging noises that Chani Nir heard starting when she got home at 11PM. They take up the narrative with the arrival of Gabe and Sarah at 12:30 AM.

 

[Nukeman948]

Guys regarding the fire alarm, I am pretty certain that a silent fire alarm went off, not an audible fire alarm. So when the pool deck collapsed and cut through the sprinkler pipe in the garage and it was gushing out water, that loss of pressure likely set off a monitored alarm.

I spent many years of my life primarily installing fire alarm systems before I moved on for more money and let my Certifications lapse. Certifications that you never had or you would know that pressure loss in the sprinkler system would never be used to trigger a fire alarm.

This system did not monitor pressure and in the unlikely event that a Fire Marshal did require a pressure monitor for any sprinkler system it should only trigger a trouble signal at the main alarm panel and the annunciator panel and not an alarm. If it was "gushing out water" it would trigger a flow alarm. An actual sprinkler flow alarm should never, ever be silent. A jockey pump was used to maintain pressure in this sprinkler system and only if this pump failed and the pressure dropped enough to start the main fire pump would there be an alarm initiation signal and it would not be silent. We use a contact on the motor starter to initiate this alarm and not a pressure switch.

The strobe circuit is completely separate from the speaker circuit and the alarm initiating circuits and seems to have survived the collapse of one part of the building. But as I explained earlier today, an alarm on one floor usually will not cause an alarm for all floors until a time delay has expired.

If you wish to be taken seriously here, you need to stop posting speculation and misinformation. You added nothing to the conversation that hadn't already been discussed. Being "pretty certain" is nothing like being an authority on the subject.

When you choose to dispute what others have posted you should at least take the time to study the subject matter.

Edit: After reading more recent fire codes, pressure switches can be used in some types of sprinkler systems to activate fire alarm systems with an appropriate time delay to compensate for normal pressure fluctuations in the sprinkler system.

 

[Optical98]

Maud

"Once again, they ignore the banging noises that Chani Nir heard starting when she got home at 11PM. They take up the narrative with the arrival of Gabe and Sarah at 12:30 AM."

This is what stays on my mind as well. With every scenario we go thru, The knocking/banging was the precursor to all of it (with what evidence we have so far) that evening.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

@optical98, plus also, what about the noises heard by one now deceased lady who told her son the day before the collapse she heard the building making all sorts of creaking noises!

 

[Optical98]

From the timeline of witness accounts it is clear that several heard an explosion before section 1 fell. The pool deck falling would have been loud but wouldn't sound like an explosion. The fire fighter that lived in the penthouse said he heard something fall, then what he thought sounded like a jet...

And some of you may remember my posting of the many accounts and remarks regarding the toxic smell. And now an additional noting of the smell:

“The lobby where I was at, things broke around me. Things started to collapse around me. It didn’t touch me,” Furman told the Herald. Behind her “by the mailbox area” to the left of the elevators collapsed completely. The roof of the entranceway collapsed, preventing her from escaping through the front doors or valet window, she said. “When I tried to escape out I couldn’t breathe. I don’t know what type of smell that was but I knew it was something potent,” Furman told first responders."

I still maintain that something exploded or combusted and it was on the north end of the building. The smell is either the tar kettle or the gas tank.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Optical98, why did no other witnesses say they smelled something? There were several people at the hotel pool across the street from the north side where the roofer's kettle was stored, surely they would have smelled it. Also, did you see the police bodycam videos? The cops arrived 2 minutes after the building collapsed and they were walking all over the place for 1/2 hour and not one person mentioned smelling anything. And if it was tar coming from the roof kettle believe me you can smell that stuff a block away.

 

[Nukeman948]

1. I'm not leaving and I would never suggest you leave.
2. The arrogance and desire to win at all costs seems mutual.
3. Your last post didn't even try to show anything I posted was untrue, you just attacked my character.
4. Youtube commenters that don't show their work may not be correct. You should do your own work and not rely on them.
5. If you don't like my personality, I suggest you ignore me instead of engaging me and contradicting me.
6. Please show us any documentation where a pressure switch or flow switch initiates a silent alarm and calls the fire dept. Wouldn't that be a good reason to evacuate?
7. I posted the relevant part of the article you referred me to below so everyone can see it. It talks about a mechanical water gong alarm which is not the same thing as the building's fire alarm system and I have never had the opportunity to connect to one of them. Pressure switches work with the pump controller to maintain the function of the sprinkler system. Because pressure can fluctuate (as the article states) flow switches are better suited for alarm initiation.


The article:
Straight pipe risers (Figure 1) do not have alarm valves. There is either a check valve or backflow preventer that isolates the sprinkler water from the supply water. The main riser, fed directly from the water supply, branches throughout the premises. These branches

(Figure 2) have sprinkler heads spaced throughout the protected area. The system pressure is the same as the city water pressure.

Because of fluctuations in the water pressure from demands made upon the city water mains, a vane (paddle) type water flow switch must monitor this system. The water flow switch should have a time delay or retard mechanism to prevent false alarms. The retard time is used to overcome water surges. All water control valves should be supervised.

Wet systems with alarm check valves (Figure 3) are basically systems that contain check valves with an alarm port whose main purpose is to ring a mechanical bell called a water motor gong. Because sprinkler system water often becomes dirty, the check valve is intended to prevent water from the sprinkler system from leaking back into the city water supply. Normally the clapper of the valve is closed, blocking the alarm port and preventing leakage into the city water supply. If a sprinkler head is activated because of fire, or if there is a surge in the city pressure, the clapper of the valve opens. The alarm port is then exposed to the incoming city water supply.

This alarm port may be piped to the outside of the building through a water motor gong.

These systems can use either a vane-type flow switch with a retard or a pressure-type flow switch. The pressure-type flow switch would be installed on the alarm port in line with a water motor gong if one is being used. The switch must be installed on top of a retard chamber. The other option is to use a pressure switch with a built-in retard. These applications are used to prevent false alarms from water surges.

Because these switches are installed on the alarm port, there is no pressure or water present under normal circumstances. This allows for installation of the pressure switches without shutting off the water supply, therefore the sprinkler system is never out of service.

Sig lines are for trolls.​

 

[Optical98]

Jeff Ostroff

Gimena Accardi and Nico Vázque

An interview with them in Argentina was interpreted and this was part of their commentary:

"The smoke, dust, and " unbearable weird smell " also prevented them from breathing normally. But despair and lack of control did not paralyze them."

 

[Demented]

Now regarding the roofer's kettle, it is not practical to lift one of those heavy things all the way up to the roof with a crane you would have to do it every day and you don't want to leave it up there. So what they do is they often pump that tar up there through these hoses into a smaller portable type of tank on wheels that they can roll around the roof and empty out as they need to.

The hoisted buckets, not pumped. Still unsure if it was a parapet davit or an outrigger beam hoist used later on, but early in the process it was a mobile crane.

Allow me to quote a resident's email.
"I live on the north side of the building facing 88 street
and as you can see by the attached pictures, they are melting the TAR right under our apartments and
the meted TAR is being lifted up with the crane"

I'm with nukeman on this. You seem to be pushing unreliable information in an attempt to be either:
1) First
2) Better than other youtube channels
3) Sell and promote tool deals on youtube.

And when you're questioned or "attacked" in any way, you get defensive. Most of your posts, at least those I've paid attention to, have been self promotion of your own youtube channel and crying about drama with other youtubers.

If you've done nearly as much research into any of this as you claim, you wouldn't be back on topics that have been discussed 8+ threads ago.

Might I also suggest taking everything Mr. Lisman says, and what his little facebook/youtube group of random people have to say, with a big grain of salt. Especially in the early days and weeks after the collapse, that little clique was pushing massive misinformation. Residents of sister buildings are not going to be your best source of information.

Edit: though again for clarity, I'm just a ME dropout who spends most of his time building steel and aluminum structures because it's more fun than constantly drawing stuff and doing maths.

Edit 2: Screenshot of email from resident confirming hoisting, not pumping.

Some concessions were made to move the tar kettles to the south side of the building for some hoisting, but overnight storage was moved back to the maintenance area on 88th.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

OK @Demented, so you don't want to see my photos from the NIST salvage site?

You did not like the photos I posted from Allyn Killsheimer's walk-through on 9/12? Yet it seems like some folks here had no problem using them in several other posts in useful analysis.

Also if I was shameless plugging my channel I would not do it on a forum where there are maybe only a dozen people contributing and reading.

I also don't see how I am trying to sell tools here. Could you give me specific posts I made where I was promoting a tool deal? That seems like a farfetched claim, and not me being defensive.

BTW the drama is not with "other YouTubers", he is coming here and misquoting this forum, and calling many of you stupid.

Also, your evidence above of the resident's complaint, is from May 2021, a month before the collapse, complaining about what happens during the day. So the flaw in your statement is that you're trying to prove that something happened to him during the day a few months ago is what was happening at 1:00 o'clock in the morning the night of the collapse when nobody is working, the kettle is most likely turned off and is not burning any tar The point I brought up is why did the cops who were walking all over not report any tar smell?

Lastly, as for your condescending statement about "Might I also suggest taking everything Mr. Lisman says, and what his little facebook/youtube group of random people have to say, with a big grain of salt.". Well, I'm a big boy and can discern who is not telling the truth, and I don't currently follow those groups because of infighting and trolling from you know who. I have too much work to do.
"

 

[Demented]

To be honest, I really don't care to see the photos unless they contain stuff we've never seen. I doubt Miami Dade or the NIST allowed you to get close up photos of cracking, corrosion, rebar grades marks, and concrete showing aggregate size.

At this point in time, geological test data, chemical analysis data, as-built drawings/photographs, NIST/rescue crew images with data from the recovery/rescue efforts showing what was laying where, and images and data from the work crew on the roof would be most beneficial than just more photos of stuff we've already seen.

The geological test data regarding the piles is, I feel, high on the list of what we're missing to determine anything. Florida is weird. These last 2 days at work we wound up having to splice an additional 85ft onto piles, for a grand total of 235ft, in an attempt to get 18 more kips. Everything else drove in good with 135-155ft piles, but we ran into a soft spot that's giving hardly any resistance at all. I seriously question the integrity of the CTS piles, and the type used, as we have 2 different sets of drawings that specify different pile types, while still having notes for 14"x14" precast and ONLY Franki on specific piles.

The zip file you released really only gave me more questions than answers. I've visited the site and there's not much you can really tell without being right up close and personal with everything. The iPhone photos missed a lot.

Who cares if that dude is still calling everyone here stupid. You clearly don't remember his shenanigans with the FIU bridge threads, or you're just new to this all. A man yelling at pigeons is just a man yelling at pigeons.

Demented is an adjective, meaning mad, insane, or suffering of dementia. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Edit for hilarity. Indeed Florida is weird. We found the pile pressure we needed shortly before the splice joint of the additional 60ft. 2 days of welding down over water in the rain for nothin. Ha.

 

[Optical98]

More remarks about the smell:

June 26, 2021

https://apnews.com/article/miami-building-collapses-4e872d03fc3210b49c60e6a275f2e860

As white smoke or steam streamed out an overpowering – and unexplained – smell of sulfur:
A bitter, sulfur-like smell hung in the air.

“The stench is very thick,” Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said.

June 25, 2021

DR. Sanjay Gupta to Anderson Cooper

GUPTA: You know, I see you have the mask on and we were just commenting, you can really smell the acrid sort of heavy metals sort of smell in the air. I mean, how dangerous is that, do you think and also for the other residents who live around here? CNN interview cooper

https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/acd/date/2021-06-25/segment/01

The problem is that interviewers aren't asking enough or the best questions. I bet other survivors smelled it too.

 

[SFCharlie]

Here’s an archived version of the Miami Herald’s “Seven Minutes to Collapse: The last stand of Champlain Towers South. Computer model, witnesses reconstruct the tragedy.” It is missing some images.

Here is the first image I found that was missing from the archive.

SF Charlie
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