Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
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[Jeff Ostroff]

I got news for you guys, I live streamed on June 25 down there, I was standing right next to Anderson Copper during his live broadcast, and I actually bumped elbows with Sanjag Gupta. It was very smoky down there as I showed in my live stream. But all I smelled was a regular house fire smell, and occasionally we would get a drift of burning plastic.

 

[MaudSTL]

The smoke, dust, and " unbearable weird smell " also prevented them from breathing normally. But despair and lack of control did not paralyze them."

We’re now plowing over ground from Parts 07 and 10. I investigated this translation contemporaneously, and could not find that reference to odor in more than one translation. I believe it was a mistake n editing, and discount it because the same quotation in every other source failed to mention a smell.

Here is the entire WhatsApp audio that supposedly mentions a smell. Perhaps one of our forum members who understands Spanish can confirm whether a smell is mentioned.

Here is a translation to English that does not mention a smell. I can’t find the single translation that did mention a smell…it has probably been taken down.

 

[Optical98]

Y'all please try and keep these discussions civil.
A bit of snark and humor is tolerable....
I don't mind the lyrics...

It is clear that Jeff has not read up on the entire history of our discussions on here. But we can enlighten him on these topics as they arise without dissing his YT channel.
New information has been slowly trickling in, so we should be able to re-evaluate previous theories without throws of temper as well.

Jeff is an asset to this thread because he lives in the area and is willing to seek new photos and possibly speak with the locals in some situations. I can appreciate that.

 

[Optical98]

Maud

You don't address what Furman says about the smell? If she smelled it that strongly obviously others entering the lobby would have smelled it too. It makes perfect sense that as they got off the elevator they would have encountered the same thing and they both commented as such.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

I think they were likely encountering gas smells from the crushed cars, and any other oils and fluids leaking onto the garage floor from the crushed cars. Also the building generator fuel.

 

[Optical98]

Oy

Yes Jeff the generator fuel/gas tank. As I mentioned earlier.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

@optical, LOL, I know Oy, here we go again. The bottom line is some people reported smelling odors, some did not. I was there and reported smelling different odors no sulfur smell. Maybe it was because I ate at Chipotle Grill on the way down there.

 

[Demented]

Everyone's sense of smell is also different, and those in industries that are often inhabited by odd smells and/or fumes, are usually used to the smell of, or no longer able to smell to some degree.

There's also the potential for there to have been electrical smells, sewage smells, and general household items burning which produce all sorts of odd smells. Any one particular odor would have been really hard to distinguish at a collapse site.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[MaudSTL]

You don't address what Furman says about the smell?

That’s a different subject.

To complete the original subject, the Vazquezes ran out of the building after the deck collapsed. They were not present on the site during or after the building collapse. Nico Vazquez’s WhatsApp audio is his only statement about their experience that night, and it does not mention a smell. To the best of my knowledge, the quotation you have referred to is not a correct translation of what he said in his WhatsApp audio.

Separately, for the first time that I am aware of, the Miami Herald recently spoke with Shamoka Firman who mentioned that she smelled something “potent” after the building collapsed, while she was still on site. She does not characterize the smell in any other way. We can all imagine many explanations for a potent smell after a building collapses on a garage. But we cannot determine what Shamoka smelled based on her statement. The only people in that lobby and garage after the building collapsed would have been Ileana Monteagueo (611) and first responders. Ms. Monteagueo has not mentioned smells as a part of her escape experience. Perhaps you can direct us to quotations from first responders who mention what they smelled when they first arrived on the scene?

The bottom line is some people reported smelling odors, some did not.

Until today’s Miami Herald piece, none of the collapse witnesses mentioned an odor. Today we learned that Shamoka Furman smelled something “potent” after the building collapsed. That’s all we have.

 

[MaudSTL]

From the timeline of witness accounts it is clear that several heard an explosion before section 1 fell… I still maintain that something exploded or combusted and it was on the north end of the building. The smell is either the tar kettle or the gas tank.

As the author of the Timeline of Collapse Witness Statements, I can’t find anyone saying they heard an explosion like a gas tank or tar kettle. Sarah Nir thought the deck collapsed as a result of an earthquake. Shamoka Furman characterized the deck collapse as having “exploded downward.” But she doesn’t describe an explosion prior to the building collapse. Like Shamoka Furman, Gabe Nir has always stated that there were three collapses: 1. The sound like a wall collapsing, 2. The deck collapse, and 3. The building collapse. He has never suggested there was an explosion between the deck collapse and the building collapse. Ileana Monteagueo says she was awakened by a “supernatural force,” which would have been the deck collapsing. She has never mentioned hearing an explosion while she ran down the stairs for her life as the building collapsed on the other side of the wall.

So who do you think heard an explosion that could be a tar pot or fuel tank?

 

[Demented]

In the released 911 calls, someone mentioned hearing an explosion. This was after the deck collapse, and possibly before the building collapse. But that is the only reference to an explosion sound that I know of. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: May have just been Furman's reference to exploding downwards.

 

[Optical98]

Maud

That's a misquote ^

I did not say anyone 'heard' an explosion "like a gas tank or kettle".

But here are quotes from the very article you posted -

At 1:14 Furman heard a "Boom Boom"

Furman called 911 reporting an “explosion” at 8777 Collins at 01:16:27 a.m., according to emergency call records from Miami-Dade County.

 

[AutisticBez]

I think it's reasonable for a collapsing building to give off a smell. As wires are severed a burning smell? There would be a lot of smells coming from crushed cars under the building. Fluids, oils, petrol, lithium is an ugly smell that can often leave a person with a feeling of not caring about death. I was exposed to lithium, it has had a profound impact on my life. Sometimes wearing a mask I swear I can smell it. Brings back a lot of memories of a time in my life that was extremely abusive.

 

[Optical98]

These smells were potent enough for them to say they could barely breathe...

https://caras.perfil.com/noticias/actualidad/gimena-accardi-y-nico-vazquez-sobrevivientes.phtml

I don't see anything about whatsapp or a recording in this article.

 

[Optical98]

Demented

Several people from the still standing part of the building mentioned hearing an explosive sound etc.
The group that was on vacation for one.

Use whatever adjective you like...there were very loud Booms at around 1:14am.

 

[Demented]

I'm fairly sure most of the booming people heard were the deck and floors collapsing, especially the succession of booms in the collapse. If it were a propane tank on a tar kettle that ruptured, people would have likely heard a roaring/whoosh sound before any booming, from at very least the tank over-pressure opening. Vehicles located next to/near the kettles within the rubble also fail to show any heat related damage such as melted bumper covers. Pretty good indication to me that a fire/explosion from the tar kettles was not a factor.

Assuming worst case scenario, they had a full 100lb tank on the kettles, though likely 33lb tanks for ease of swapping. That'd be 8gal of propane or 25 gal of propane. I'm sure the great Hank Hill would be in agreeance here that we wouldn't be seeing a release of energy large enough to take the building down the way it collapsed, from where the tanks were parked. In all my years of doing pyrotechnic work, I'd never expect to see that sort of destruction from such a low energy source. It has been a hot minute since I've held a license to play with the boom booms though.

 

[Optical98]

Demented

These sounds were heard BEFORE anything was seen to have fallen. So no it was not the damn pool deck.
Knocking and banging were heard from about 12:30am, that steadily got louder to the point the noises were described as BOOMs.

"Three loud bangs roused Willis from the living room couch. They came in succession, starting with the familiar boom of what sounded like a coastal storm, escalating until Willis thought a jet was taxiing on the roof. His parents, Albert and Janette Aguero, jumped out of bed."

All I'm saying is that there were loud sounds and a potent smell, before section 1 fell. And the discussion needs to focus on that.

Also people are misunderstanding my comment:

"I still maintain that something exploded or combusted and it was on the north end of the building. The smell is either the tar kettle or the gas tank."

The something that exploded may have been near a tar kettle or the fuel tank causing the potent smell. There are 2 sentences above.

 

[Nukeman948]

Also being the so-called expert you claimed you were, I am very surprised you are not aware of NFPA 13, the Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.

Good morning Jeff,

I see you made some edits to your previous post to further besmirch my character. Your assertion is incorrect.

Actually, the Certifications required by my State, that I mentioned before, require me to not only be aware of NFPA 13 and several other fire protection standards, but to also be proficient in the parts that pertain to the installation of fire alarm systems.

While it's been many years since I was involved in this type of work and the codes have changed several times, my understanding of the basic function of fire alarm systems has not changed that much and my original point in response to SFCharlie, that it may have only been heard on the one floor in alarm, is still valid. That floor only had a few notification devices and they were near the exits from that floor. The one correction I would make to my original post is that flow switches need a time delay of up to 10 seconds to limit false alarms, but in my experience that was normally built into the switch.

I'm still waiting for any solid evidence that the fire alarm system failed to function as designed.
Please save the personal attacks for your Youtube pals.

Sig lines are for trolls.​

 

[Demented]

Demented

These sounds were heard BEFORE anything was seen to have fallen. So no it was not the damn pool deck.
Knocking and banging were heard from about 12:30am, that steadily got louder to the point the noises were described as BOOMs.

"Three loud bangs roused Willis from the living room couch. They came in succession, starting with the familiar boom of what sounded like a coastal storm, escalating until Willis thought a jet was taxiing on the roof. His parents, Albert and Janette Aguero, jumped out of bed."

All I'm saying is that there were loud sounds and a potent smell, before section 1 fell. And the discussion needs to focus on that.

Load redistribution of failing slab(s) and shearing rebar. Shearing steel will be silent with maybe some groaning until it fully shears with a loud thunk/boom sound. Accompanied by failing concrete, load redistributions like that will definitely make progressively louder thunk/boom sounds until the structure says no more and cannot stand on it's own anymore. Sounds that could be assumed to be the structure failing began the day before. These sounds could have been originating from near the large shearwall connection as one section after another slowly cracks and fails.

Going back to the audio from the assumed to be Ring camera of the interior of one of the units (611 was it?), one can clearly hear the final stages of weight redistribution through the groaning rebar as it reverberates in the structure. One of the main reasons I suggested months ago people listen to the audio only in darkness for a while and try not to associate any of the visuals in the video with anything. We can gear more than we can see.

It's hard to investigate a smell on a forum, especially without much context of it by those of knowledge of certain cents. High amperage electrical flow into concrete will make a horrid smell, along with booms as well as wet concrete explodes from vaporizing moisture and ozone is generated. Ozone is often described as a strange sweet and pungent smell that is very offputting. With broken main lines, we'd very much expect to have the scent of ozone around, which very easily could be be transferred around the building through the central cooling system, hallways, elevator shaft, and garbage chutes.

 

[SFCharlie]

lol...Lots of crushed lead acid batteries full of sulfuric acid...

SF Charlie
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