Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 41

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SwinnyGG]

most of the concrete at the bottom would be crumbled leaving 6 to 12 inches of rebar sticking out. A concrete nail doesn't need to penetrate all the way through a slab to hold tight and the rebar, acting like a concrete nail, wouldn't need to penetrate all the way through to remain in place. This would improve the probability.

This is something I hadn't considered- that the end of that column was probably crumbled and the rebar may have been exposed upon contact with the slab. I see your point, that makes this scenario significantly less impossible.

I still think there would be some cracking on the surface.. I can't remember, but isn't that #8 or #10 bar? I can't imagine simultaneously driving a dozen #8/#10 "concrete nails" (perfect analogy by the way) within a square foot area without the top surface of the slab cracking/spalling at least somewhat.

 

[Nukeman948]

I can't remember, but isn't that #8 or #10 bar? I can't imagine simultaneously driving a dozen #8/#10 "concrete nails" (perfect analogy by the way) within a square foot area without the top surface of the slab cracking/spalling at least somewhat.

I think it was number 10 and I would expect plenty of cracking and spalling on the surface as well. Unfortunately we don't have clear enough pictures to make anything more than an educated guess.

Sig lines are for trolls.

 

[Spartan5]

The steel that remains for the “known” columns is bundled a lot neater and tighter than this mystery mess. There’s also a lot more kinking near the immediate surface when compared to the others.

second, there is no 'exit'... below that first floor slab is dirt. The compressive strength of dirt is not infinite, but all of these elements are incompressible (the dirt, the concrete, the rebar, etc) which means any punching through of the basement slab would mean displaced volume that has to go somewhere.

I hear you. But I know from experience that you can drive pieces of rebar into the ground pretty easily with little to show at the surface for it. Think about pounding in the drill rod when using a nuclear density gauge for compaction testing.

The question to me is can a piece of rebar moving at 20 mph punch cleanly through concrete with the weight of a building pushing behind it? Right now we are missing other plausible explanations.

We need to get the Myth Busters to build a test rig.

 

[SFCharlie]

Operator? Operator? Yes Operator, I need a 13 story concrete column, preferably with slabs attached every story, and a one story drop stand with a few inch thick slab for a base. Yes, thank you mam.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SFCharlie]

Why is the top of the Northeast corner of the "H" almost free of rebar?, and what's that crop of rebar on top of the Southeast corner?
Ah, the south side of the "H" is the exterior wall of the building.

 

[Optical98]

$500 for more pixels plz... but looking at the pic above it looks like the cross beam is fractured near the southern end? Maybe it didn't drop all at once and 'maybe' the southern end has been snugged back together..
I noticed looking at the aerial photo that the southern beam looked a bit curved or slightly slanted.

Just pointing this out for those who can process various scenarios when Charlie gets his K colummn

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

@SF Charlie, probably due to how they cut it during the demolition and removal.

BTW guys, I just premiered the latest video "Miami Condo Collapse: NIST Investigation Update/Status NCST"

https://youtu.be/a53k9_Q1BuA

I took 4 hours of their status update from the other day and condensed it down to 20 minutes. You can bet that you know who will be along shortly to scrape my video and show it on his channel again and tell everybody how stupid Jeff Ostroff is and continue to lie to people telling them I'm a tool salesman and tell everybody he never watches my videos because I'm not worth the time, yet he always seems to steal my vids to show on his channel and pick them apart and show them how wrong I am LOL. “But I never watch Jeffs videos”.

.

 

[Demented]

My thought was that if the "K" column broke off from its supporting beam, most of the concrete at the bottom would be crumbled leaving 6 to 12 inches of rebar sticking out. A concrete nail doesn't need to penetrate all the way through a slab to hold tight and the rebar, acting like a concrete nail, wouldn't need to penetrate all the way through to remain in place. This would improve the probability.

This is my feeling as well. Especially with the demo guys having reported the concrete in the columns was soft. The bottom could have easily crumbled prior to hitting the slab.

The rebar is deep enough in there however that it was not affected by heavy machinery in the clean-up process, unless they were ultra delicate and removed most of the debris around it by hand. It's still really farfetched, but so far seems the most logical.

$500 for more pixels plz... but looking at the pic above it looks like the cross beam is fractured near the southern end? Maybe it didn't drop all at once and 'maybe' the southern end has been snugged back together..
I noticed looking at the aerial photo that the southern beam looked a bit curved or slightly slanted.

Just pointing this out for those who can process various scenarios when Charlie gets his K colummn

If I'm not mistaken, some of the actual structural guys pointed out early on that forces from the deck collapsing would put a lot of stress and leverage on beam 33. This section of the building also stood for nearly 8 seconds after the initial collapse, and the twisting and swaying motion of the building at that time too is also likely to have played a roll in snapping it. The rebar cage appears intact from all of the photos I've looked at and beam 33 is canted vertically and slightly northwards. If it were not for beam 33 failing, or possibly a column N10 failing, I would not be surprised if this section of the building would have still been standing. Not structurally sound because of the inadequate shear wall, but standing none-the-less.

@Jeff, just ignore that man. I'm surprised he even still comes here to look despite his ban(s). He hates this place.


Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

@Demented, He keeps coming here looking for ideas because he keeps running out of content ideas and he can't think up ideas on his own and he knows I'm one of the leaders of finding new things to talk about, and because of my large audience I draw a lot of questions and suggestions from viewers on topics to cover. I'm sure he's extremely upset over the fact that I seem to get the scoop on a lot of these things that he hasn't even gotten to yet. So his best way to handle it is to steal the video show it on his channel tell everybody what a jerk I am and what a moron I am and then I'm stealing ideas from him LOL it's all part of the narcissist way.

 

[AutisticBez]

Alright can someone just go down to the site and kick that rebar to see if it's actually attached to the ground?

 

[AutisticBez]

Jeff come on man, you YouTubers are a bunch of leeches. As if your content hasn't attempted to spin up views and participating by visiting a perfectly strong building and insinuating that the building is unsafe just because a little bit of rebar at the bottom of an expansion joint is exposed? Oh noes. Quickly call in emergency services. I bet after you made that video, someone had to waste $10k+ on someone taking a look at the building just to prove you wrong. You sir are no different, and your videos give absolutely nothing to this debate. I mean, I was wrong, but at least I went to the effort of finding peer reviewed science to back up my claims. This entire mystery column thing is dumb, it's a waste of time. You know there isn't any column in the drawings, nobody can install a column in the garage without someone knowing about it. How you going to install it into the slab? You've got to cut the slab open and rebar it into the slab right? Then you've got to do that to the H beam which is carrying half the building on it. It makes no sense. Maybe it's just some random rebar sitting on the ground? How do we even know it's attached?

 

[Demented]

Maybe it's just some random rebar sitting on the ground? How do we even know it's attached?

There's nothing around it supporting it. The bar with the S bend, among others, on the east most side would be defying gravity if it were not attached/embedded somehow.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[SFCharlie]

more pixels plz...

Sorry Boss, these is the only pixel I got...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[Optical98]

Jeff Ostroff

Anyone can see thru that guy, I'd bet 80% of the comments on his vids are faked accts. I am surprised YT admin can't do anything to help you.

I know it sux being trolled tho, I had someone go so far as to look up my reddit acct, and troll me about a post I made on a Formula One thread. I said something about Bottas and they started replying I was a 911 conspiracy theorist o.o, w/e I can't be bothered with idiocy.

Remember this - Indifference hurts way more than anger ^^

Edit: Therapy session over... please proceed with your rebar size analysis guys.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

in the old days it was letters.

In truth lies and o rings. Allan McDonald talked about them having to disprove various theory's that had been put forward for the challenger disaster.

To the point they instrumented up the next time they moved a unit from the stack up building to the launchpad to show the stress levels while it was moving and going round corners.

 

[MOJOJOHN]

Sorry will not post again.

 

[SFCharlie]

If anyone has any reason not to post a copy of the above broken into words, please just say "don't post". thanks
(since MOJOJOHN removed his post, I will not post.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

I still want to get my hands on the real security camera footage. You can bet that the Miami Dade prosecutors office has those digital files they haven't said anything and I'm quite surprised that the news hasn't mentioned it or said that they were trying to get it from the police. I already turned in a Freedom of Information Act request to the Miami Dade PD but they have not answered me yet. So it seems like they're being very tight lipped on that, as the Miami Dade PD did answer me on a previous request and supplied me with the data that I requested. But I believe because there is an ongoing criminal investigation and then possible liabilities and lawsuits after that, it's going to be a long time before we ever see these security videos but I am chomping at the bit to get my hands on one

 

[Demented]

Speaking with one of the crane/pile driver operater at work today. He's fairly confident 5kips would dig that rebar in deep enough to stick into the concrete assuming they're #10's. A whole lot less than I was expecting. Actually doesn't sound all thay crazy now.

@Jeff, have you any idea if they have the as builts? The town of surfside kept deflecting me to Miami saying they may have them, but Surfside does not.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[SFCharlie]

Construction of luxury condo just feet away crippled frail Champlain Towers, lawsuit says

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies