Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part VII 51

[JAE]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first.

Part I
thread815-436595
Part II
thread815-436699
Part III
thread815-436802
Part IV
thread815-436924
Part V
thread815-437029
Part VI
thread815-438451




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[SwinnyGG]

Does anyone else think it seems odd that Ms. Figg is not licensed when she is in charge of the bridge engineering business. In fact, many of the players on the project are unlicensed so they don't have to worry about losing their licenses.

Not especially. Lots of companies doing licensed work have CEOs who aren't.

 

[jrs87]

SFCharlie,

One thing this background information shows is that safety was not the primary motivation of this project, real estate development was. If safety was primary, FIU would not have waited years to build signature bridge, they would have built lower-cost bridge to solve problem of safety in a timely manner. After all, the other side of the connected FIU parking structure has an existing regular pedestrian overpass. But then again, my argument falls apart because despite accident last year, there does not appear to be a need for a bridge. In other words, where is video of hoards of students crossing this road?

So, the bridge may be necessary for future development of a real estate deal. How is it TIGER was used to pay for an amenity of a future project?

None of this proves anything related to cause of collapse, except it may show evidence of bait-and-switch.

I feel Atorod Azizinamini deserves benefit of doubt here at this point.

 

[MOJOJOHN]

Scorch marks on 12 are likely from cut of of pt tendons with a torch.

 

[MOJOJOHN]

Ms. Figg is Eugene Figg's daugter. Figg was a well known bridge engineer.

 

[tkjohnson]

Father of FIU’s University City project, Adam Drisin:

https://news.fiu.edu/2014/01/universitycity-a-pl

Who is Adam Drisin?

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/f...f-raping-student-on-study-abroad-trip-8435734

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Drisin.pdf

 

[chris snyder]

Miami-Herald is still pushing to get records released. Judge "Cooper refused to dismiss the case and instead gave federal investigators two weeks to decide whether they want to defend themselves in a Florida courtroom before he rules." Interesting that the author said cracks were noted "just days" before the collapse, instead of referring to photos from 2/28.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/article212489364.html

 

[jrs87]

Am I reading this correctly? FIU Bridge project deemed high risk so FHWA will be involved? (i.e. Innovative Construction Methods)

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/briefing-room/307761/fiu-podi-so-plan.pdf

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/federalaid/stewardship/150504podi.pdf

 

[jrcooper80]

I feel Atorod Azizinamini deserves benefit of doubt here at this point.

Well, from what I have read, and in his very own words (see Link), he appears to be the person who shaped the FIU bridge. If they had simply gone with a steel bridge, i.e., if they truly care about safety, I believe all six victims would still be alive today. If he was not involved, why was he the only technical person quoted when the bridge was first installed? (see Link). Or was he simply trying to take the spotlight/credit for a bridge he was not a part of?

I think people should not just dismiss the high cost of the bridge (over $10M). When an unnecessarily expensive project got built, elsewhere in our roadway system that could make better use of the money to actually save lives had to give. Also remember that FIU is a public university supported by the taxpayers and their mostly poor student population (many from poor immigrant families). It has no business building fancy structures, especially as a giveaway to real-estate developers in this case. Simply because they could use their political might of South Florida (Marco Rubio, Debbie Wasserman, etc.) to get the project funded does not mean they should do it.

 

[jrcooper80]

I notice FDOT is missing from the chart...

That's why FDOT and the governor have said all along it was a FIU project. Over the years, FIU has grown very powerful politically. The engineers at FDOT were no match for the well-connected FIU administration politically.

 

[jrs87]

jrcooper80,

Re: Azizinamini

Perhaps his philosophies can be gleaned from his articles:

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=F_nz4x0AAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao

Bonus material:

Linda Figg on day of move (wear your rubber boots before watching):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u8qicuu2...IYR8OV1a/Interviews?dl=0&preview=P1066015.mov

More FIU:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u8qicuu2...IYR8OV1a/Interviews?dl=0&preview=P1066008.mov

 

[hokie66]

jrs87
My gumboots weren't tall enough, so I now have to throw them away. And my feet stink.

 

[dik]

jrcooper80... it depends on FDOT's involvement... they may say they had none, but, if they were attendants at all site meetings and were on the list of people to be copied or contacted... the lawyers will have a hayday.

Dik

 

[tkjohnson]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u8qicuu2...IYR8OV1a/Interviews?dl=0&preview=P1066008.mov

I think he is Kenneth Jessell. The story I heard was that their first two TIGER applications were not successful because the project B/C ratio was below 1.0. The firm that did the B/C estimation was asked to find ways to increase the b/c. They made up some accidents that did not exist. Except for the one pedestrian fatality that happened last year, which was long after the bridge was approved, there had been no pedestrian accidents at the location. That was what I heard. My source could be wrong. I think there ought to be a criminal investigation.

 

[TheGreenLama]

This is something that's been bothering me for a while:

In all instances the longitudinal reinforcement extending from the truss diagonals into the bottom slab and top canopy terminate in a "J" bend rather than an "L" bend. Plus, they often appear to terminate above the outside face slab reinforcement, and are without any crossing bars at the bends. It seems trivial, but it's not. I would think you'd want to securely anchor these within the top and bottom chords and tie the two together. Why was it done this way? Could the designers have wanted to in some way try to simulate a steel truss-like effect in a concrete truss? No answer on this one.

It's little things like this, along with the minimal amounts of mild steel within the structure, the odd stressing sequence, the work point locations for 1/2 and 11/12 being so close to the end of the bridge, to name just a few, that makes me wonder what post-tension, concrete bridge experience the designers had.

 

[LittleInch]

Seeing the polish video again and the slow motion dash cam (where would we be without that I wonder), I hadn't fully taken in the fact that the top of no 12 with the top canopy initially falls vertically in the first few frames by quite a long distance whilst the bottom slab only rotates about the edge of the pier.

To me the only way it could do that is if the base of no 11/12 had been pushed out beyond the pier before being pulled back over it as the lower deck got pulled off the pier and the top canopy collapsed down and further into the road.

So sequence was base of 11/12 breaks and moves sideways enough to fall vertically down, top of 11 breaks along with canopy, bottom slab breaks somewhere between 11 and 10 and then starts to fall with base of 11/12 pushed out beyond the pier. It all starts to fold in then as the bottom slab is [pulled off the pier and the top canopy pancakes onto the bottom slab it pulls the top canopy, still attached to no 12 back over the pier to its final resting place.

The speed of collapse and virtually simultaneous fracture is still absolutely frightening.


Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[bimr]

Quote (bimr)

Does anyone else think it seems odd that Ms. Figg is not licensed when she is in charge of the bridge engineering business. In fact, many of the players on the project are unlicensed so they don't have to worry about losing their licenses.

Not especially. Lots of companies doing licensed work have CEOs who aren't.

By law, engineering firms are required to be licensed. In Florida, the principal of the firm is required to be a PE. For Figg, that person is probably Mr. Pate. Considering that Ms. Figg (the owner) went to an engineering school, it is unusual that she has never bothered to obtain a PE license.

Based on what happened with the Hyatt Regency disaster, Figg may be at risk of losing the firm's license.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Considering that Ms. Figg (the owner) went to an engineering school, it is unusual that she has never bothered to obtain a PE license

I disagree. There are vastly more non-licensed engineers in the US than licensed ones, probably by multiple orders of magnitude.

Mr. Pate is titled 'Principal Bridge Engineer' in a few sources mentioning his name via google.

I do agree that Figg Group's licensure is undoubtedly at stake.

 

[3DDave]

I can see the approach the bimr is taking - the engineering of bridges will require someone to have a PE, but I can see the converse as well; it's my impression, possibly incorrect, that to get a PE one basically has to find a job working under the supervision of a PE for a significant period of time. If the goal is to run a company that would be quite a detour if there was no plan to be an active engineer. I can't say for certain that having a PE would be better in running finance, marketing, engineering, procurement, contracting, legal, and other departments. I can say that one reason I never tried is that the engineering I did was defense work and I think, of the hundreds of engineers I ran into, only one had a PE license, making getting one, for me, an impossibility as I never sought the opportunity to work for a firm where I could work under such supervision.

 

[SwinnyGG]

it's my impression, possibly incorrect, that to get a PE one basically has to find a job working under the supervision of a PE for a significant period of time.

This is correct to my knowledge.

In the mechanical or electrical world, finding a PE to work under to properly qualify for the exam is much less likely than in the structural or civil world where the percentage of people with PEs is much higher.

Based on her last name, my suspicion is that Ms. Figg was groomed from early on to take over Figg Group, and she may never have worked as a pure engineer. As the owner's heir she may very well have gone right into the project management side as opposed to pure engineering. If that's the case, than not having a PE license may have never been a hindrance for her.

This quote from bimr is absolutely correct:

In Florida, the principal of the firm is required to be a PE.

BUT the 'principal' does not mean the owner or CEO. It means the Principal Engineer- which at some firms might be the CTO or COE or some other c-suite title, but might also have no fancy title at all.

 

[TheGreenLama]

So sequence was base of 11/12 breaks and moves sideways enough to fall vertically down,

This is impossible, as top of member 11 remains attached to canopy. The length of member 11 can NOT increase, it can only remain the same or decrease. To push out member 12 this far it would have to become separated from 12 first, which is of course quite possible.