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Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part VIII 9

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dik

dik

Structural
Apr 13, 2001
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-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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TugboatEng said:
And you speak for everyone else?
Click to expand...

I speak for anyone who reads your long history of responding to these threads with logical fallacies aimed at eliminating the conversation around actual data and information, without ever making a single, actual argument.

If you want to make an argument, actually make one.
 
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dik said:
My concern is that we are not doing enough, and that things are going to get worse.
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My belief is that you are correct. We're probably not doing enough. Though I would say it a different way. More like... what we're doing is an inefficient use of our resources. Driven by what makes us "feel better" rather than what actually helps the environment.

Does anyone actually believe that outlawing plastic straws is going to do anything about the plastic waste in the pacific ocean? Not really. It just makes the nutty Californians feel as if they are doing something. So, they can pat themselves on the back and continue to talk about how morally lsuperior they are to the rest of the world.

Just like shutting down the San Onofre nuclear plant makes those same people feel good. But, that's actually EXTREMELY counterproductive to their stated goal of reducing CO2 emissions.

Things are going to get worse. This is probably true too. We can and should attempt to do more. But, not in counterproductive ways. Small steps forward. Punish the worst CO2 emitters with taxes and fees. Then use those taxes and fees for things that will help in the future. That's biasing the market in a way such that it will find greater efficiencies.
 
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...what we're doing is an inefficient use of our resources. Driven by what makes us "feel better" rather than what actually helps the environment.
Click to expand...

I'll definitely agree with you there.

Just like shutting down the San Onofre nuclear plant makes those same people feel good. But, that's actually EXTREMELY counterproductive to their stated goal of reducing CO2 emissions.
Click to expand...

Demonstrating that's it's not really about CO2 for them, but about virtue signaling for some and for others, it's about forcing dependency and a reduced standard of living on the populace.

Things are going to get worse. This is probably true too. We can and should attempt to do more. But, not in counterproductive ways. Small steps forward. Punish the worst CO2 emitters with taxes and fees. Then use those taxes and fees for things that will help in the future. That's biasing the market in a way such that it will find greater efficiencies.
Click to expand...

This is where I diverge from your approach. Yes, regulations on actual pollution are a good thing. the rest will take care of itself. If fossil fuels become more scarce and more expensive, they will be replaced with less expensive alternatives. There's no reason to hamstring our economy and make everyone pay more for other sources of energy by imposing artificial scarcity.

You all know by now I'm a staunch opponent of imposing "green" energy solutions, but you probably don't know that if I could, I'd have grid-tied wind turbines at my house? If I ever manage to get out where I have enough space between me and my neighbors, to do it, I will, not to cut my CO2 emissions and help stop global warming, but because it has a good ROI.
 
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BridgeSmith said:
This is where I diverge from your approach. Yes, regulations on actual pollution are a good thing. the rest will take care of itself. If fossil fuels become more scarce and more expensive, they will be replaced with less expensive alternatives. There's no reason to hamstring our economy and make everyone pay more for other sources of energy by imposing artificial scarcity.
Click to expand...

So, the root cause of our differences is the definition on what "pollution" is. Right?

If some corporation is dumping toxic waste into our water supply, that will kill people, animals fish and such... Then we will impose tremendous punishments against them so that they can never do that again. That's obvious. We all agree on that.

We might have lesser punishments for a plant that emits gasses into the air that cause the rain to be corrosive and acidic. We can easily measure the change in the rain. Then we'd want to demonstrate that there is a problem with the rain's acidity that can harm crops or such. This is why our government would force that plant to clean up it's emissions. Right?

The tricky thing is that C02 isn't a pollutant by it's nature. It's inherently natural. But, the amount of it that's being released into the air still affects the environment. It's like when processed waste water is released into rivers and streams. The processed water becomes a problem because of the AMOUNT of processed water that is being released. But, in this case the environmental effect of the released water is immediate. Therefore, we more and more stringent requirements for how the waste water must be treated before it can be released.

For CO2, the idea is very similar to the waste water case. We're releasing a lot of CO2. We've been doing it for awhile and we're just now beginning to understand that it is having an effect on our environment. Therefore, we want to take steps to prevent environmental damage from this gas. But, the effects are local, so passing requirements on a plant next door does next to nothing to solve the problem. We could just ignore the problem because there's no easy solution. But, if we want to come up with a solution, the ONLY option is to skew the system (i.e. free market) in a way that accounts for the extra environmental cost that isn't currently accounted for. This is a very, very challenging thing to do. Nearly impossible. But, it needs to be done GLOBALLY in order for it to be a true long term solution.
 
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It's like putting a bandaid on a slashed juggler.

I suspect that we have to seriously look at cutting back our use of energy... and that's not happening. It's not just a matter of finding a 'green' alternative.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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...maybe a step in the right direction. We'll see where this leads.


"The Biden administration is announcing a climate rule that would require most fossil fuel power plants to slash their greenhouse gas pollution 90 percent between 2035 and 2040 — or shut down."


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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Shutting down all the evil fossil fuel plants. Very Cambodian “year Zero” style thinking.
 
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Australia has some of the best coking (not coaking) coal. It is essential for steelmaking. The environmental extremists, like you, dik, would have us live in the Dark Ages.
 
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I dunno, hokie, things may have to change a tad...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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Hokie -

I doubt the main use of Australian coal is for steel production. If that's all we were using Coal for then we'd be a lot better off from a CO2 emissions standpoint.
 
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It sounds like it is a good anthracite type...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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Josh said:
Khmer Rouge 1975 would be year zero
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Yes that is what I was referring to. The mindless shutting down of the economy and society. Not a thought given as to the ramifications. No, just shut it down.

Net Zero. Year Zero. It’s the same logic; shut it all down, and build back better something in its place.
 
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Tomfh said:
Net Zero. Year Zero. It’s the same logic; shut it all down, and build back better something in its place.
Click to expand...

I think your analogy is a powerful one. The kind of "us against them" attitude that let to mass slaughter / death of a population. No matter how "brilliant" the leaders of your society are, they should not be given total control or authority on ANYTHING.
 
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Josh,

There are two main types of coal produced in Australia. Thermal coal and coking coal. The coking coal consists of about 47%, according to what I read recently.

But the article which dik linked was about a new coking coal mine, thus my response.

Both are essential to both the economy of Australia and the economy of the main customers, which include Japan, China, India. That will remain the case for many years.
 
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