Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XII 23

[dik]

For earlier threads, see:
thread1618-496010
thread1618-496614
thread1618-497017
thread1618-497239
thread1618-497988
thread1618-498967
thread1618-501135
thread1618-504850
thread1618-506948
thread1618-507973
thread1618-510266


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

When you say pre-industrisal that certainly can't include all time prior to the industrial revolution? What is the earliest time you would like to limit pre-industrial to?

 

[dik]

The late 1800s... but it's not an issue to quibble about. This detracts from a very serious problem.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

It's a serious issue to quibble about. There were certainly times of higher temperature pre-1800's. It's important you properly describe your interval and why you chose to ignore earlier data.

 

[CWB1]

it's been a very cool and wet year.

Same in the midwest. Here in Detroit we only had a few odd days in the low-90F's and none 100F+ this year. My neighbor succeeded again this year but had to work really hard to kill his lawn.

 

[GregLocock]

The late 1800s were still recovering from the Little Ice Age, so were a very poor basis for comparison. Here's the one that proves that CO2 is not the thermostat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[dik]

Nuclear power...

"Within the large community of scientists who share deep concern over climate change and accept the urgent need to greatly reduce carbon emissions, there is a sharp divide over the future role of nuclear power in the global energy mix. Among these scientists, arguments for nuclear power’s necessity, desirability, dangers, and impracticality abound.

The case for nuclear power as a necessary component of the fight against climate change typically assumes that sun, wind, and increased efficiency cannot meet future energy needs, particularly baseload demand. Those making the case for the desirability of nuclear power emphasize the relatively small amount of land needed to obtain nuclear fuel and site reactors, and the near absence of the pollutants associated with fossil fuel burning during operation.

Those warning of unacceptable dangers associated with nuclear power generation point to accidents at Fukushima and Chernobyl, to increasing threat of nuclear war among nations if more and more nations have the capability to produce weapons-grade isotopes, to stages in the fuel cycle that could be vulnerable to diversion of radioactive material by terrorists, and to potential leakage from spent fuel storage sites. Those arguing that increased use of nuclear power is impractical mainly emphasize its relatively high cost, its lengthy deployment time, and the absence of widespread public acceptance."

https://thebulletin.org/2023/10/nuclear-power-why-the-divide-in-expert-views/#post-heading

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Those warning of unacceptable dangers associated with nuclear power generation point to accidents at Fukushima and Chernobyl

These are both red herrings. What was the damage from Fukushima? Something close to 20,000 deaths from the earthquake and ensuing tidal wave. There was release of radiation, but the amount that the general public could have seen from this was negligible. And, there has not been one recorded death or even acute illness among workers at the site as a result of radiation exposure.

Chernobyl was absolutely awful. This is undeniable. But, this was a poorly built plant (by western standards) and the actions that led up to the disaster showed tremendous institutional incompetence that would never be allowed by a non-communist country. Even so, the total number of deaths is now at 45. Two from debris, 28 by acute radiation sickness and 15 from thyroid cancer (which can easily be directly attributed to radiation exposure). That is probably a smaller number because there is likely an increased cancer mortality rate amongst those exposed, but it's difficult to say exactly how much can be attributed to the incident.

My belief is that no member of the general public died as a result of either incident.

Now, compare the total number of workers deaths from those incidents (45-ish) with the amount of injuries that you get from other sources of power:
[ul]
[li]Oil rigs in the ocean. The estimate for number of deaths per year is 108.... And, that's EVERY YEAR.[/li]
[li]At oil refineries, the statistics are harder to come by. But, the site I found tracked 137 deaths in the US over a 20 year period.[/li]
[li]The worldwide estimate for number of deaths from the solar industry is 100. But, in the US there were 10 deaths from the installation of rooftop solar panels in 2020. My guess is (due to the pandemic) this was a down year for the number of deaths because less work was occurring.[/li]
[/ul]

Looking at it this way, nuclear is far and away the safest means of energy production we have. It's just that a lot of people (on the left and right) have an "ick" factor related to nuclear power. Maybe it's related to it being 'unnatural'. Maybe it's because of the media portrayal. Maybe we view these power plant workers based on the way Homer Simpson is portrayed on that sitcom.

 

[BridgeSmith]

Chernobyl was absolutely awful. This is undeniable. But, this was a poorly built plant (by western standards) and the actions that led up to the disaster showed tremendous institutional incompetence that would never be allowed by a non-communist country.

You're on point with this comment. I worked with a guy from Ukraine who was a power plant engineer in Russia/Siberia before he came to the US. He told me that the Chernobyl power plant was so far behind on it's maintenance that nearly all of its primary control systems had failed years before the meltdown, and they ran it on its backup systems until they failed. The polit bureau in Moscow was calling the shots, and no amount of begging or warning from the plant managers convinced them to allow it to be shut down for repairs.

Chernobyl, Fukushima, and Three Mile Island were all bilt in the '70s, with control systems that were outdated even by the time the plants came online.

 

[dik]

Sorry guy... I'm pro-nuke, but it has to be done carefully... the article wasn't anti-nuke...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[hokie66]

It wan’t anti nuclear, it just illustrates the void between informed and ignorant.

 

[BridgeSmith]

Exactly, hokie66. The article purports to be relaying the views of "experts", but if the anti-nuke "experts" are that ignorant on the subject, it's no wonder we can't make any progress.

Leaving aside there hasn't been a significant problem with any nuclear plant built since 1980, the newer generation of Thorium-based plants alleviate all of the major risks associated with nuclear power plants. The reaction is not self-sustaining, so an accidental core meltdown is virtually impossible, and even purposeful meltdown would be very difficult to accomplish. It doesn't produce material suitable for nuclear weapons, and the materials needed for a dirty bomb are completely inaccessible, due to toxicity of the molten salt (and the fact that it's hot enough melt the flesh off anyone stupid enough to go near it when the reactor is operating, and becomes a solid block of still very toxic salt when it cools).

 

[dik]

Extreme rain is turning homes into havens for toxic mold...

"As fossil fuel pollution traps heat, flooding is intensifying and disasters are becoming more frequent and more intense. The floods are wreaking financial damages, and they’re exacerbating health hazards as flooded streets and basements foster mold and release pathogens from raw sewage. In Rust Belt cities like Detroit with combined sewer and rainwater systems, untreated sewage can back up into streets and homes when pipes become overwhelmed with stormwater."

https://thebulletin.org/2023/10/cli...omes-into-havens-for-toxic-mold/#post-heading

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Sorry guy... I'm pro-nuke, but it has to be done carefully... the article wasn't anti-nuke...

Oh, I realize that the article wasn't anti-nuke. Your quote from the article wasn't anti-nuke either. It pointed to towards certain environmental activist type views that are anti-nuke.

My rant (which is what it was) was a rant against that attitude. It's still quite prevalent amongst many of my friends on the left. They have been sold this fear of nuclear power for decades. And, climate change isn't enough of an immediate or existential threat for them to change their attitude. Which is why I like to engage people on that attitude. It's an attitude based solely off of ignorance and an irrational fear.

 

[BridgeSmith]

They have been sold this fear of nuclear power for decades...It's an attitude based solely off of ignorance and an irrational fear.

Nailed it once again!

 

[dik]

A summer of extremes...

"These were the words of Ursula von der Leyen, during her State of the European Union address last month. Though this is hyperbole — as nowhere in the world are we close to boiling water temperatures — the President of the European Commission’s choice of words effectively captures the urgency of a situation that goes far beyond record-breaking summer heat. This summer, Europe was devastated by wildfires, floods, and extreme weather, all of which were closely monitored by Copernicus."

https://www.copernicus.eu/en/news/news/observer-summer-extremes-captured-copernicus

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Climate rules are coming for corporate America...

"The cost of climate change is growing for companies as extreme weather disrupts manufacturing and supply chains and inflicts billions in economic losses. For the agriculture industry, the threat from rising temperatures "may be one of the greatest that we face in this lifetime," according to Corteva, an Indiana company that makes seeds and chemicals.

But Corteva — which was previously part of DowDuPont — says it has a plan. There's money to be made producing things like biofuels to power ships and airplanes with less climate pollution, and crops that are better at resisting diseases as the planet gets hotter. And — crucially — Corteva says it is curbing some of its own emissions of the greenhouse gasses that are heating the planet. If it misses deadlines it set for operating more sustainably, the company says its relationships with customers and investors could suffer.

However, that hasn't stopped Corteva from working alongside other American companies and lobbyists to limit upcoming regulations from the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) that would make businesses disclose their emissions and the risks they face from climate change."

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/12/1205...emissions-companies-disclosure-sec-california

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[GregLocock]

"Though this is hyperbole — as nowhere in the world are we close to boiling water temperatures — the President of the European Commission’s choice of words effectively captures the urgency of a situation "

No, that is just silly sound-biteyness.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[dik]

There may be an urgency... but no one seems to be concerned.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

No need to be.

 

[BridgeSmith]

...no one seems to be concerned.

...especially those 'in the know' who are making the most noise about (other people) cutting energy usage and emissions. That should tell you something about the reality of the situation.