Ukraine Nuclear Power Plants 9

[bones206]

Nuclear power plants are not designed to operate in war zones. What can be done to proactively shore up the safety systems of these plants in Ukraine?

Assuming Russia permitted the international community to bring equipment on-site uncontested, is there anything that could be used in a pinch to augment emergency power systems etc? When I got out of the nuclear industry in 2016, there were a lot of projects in the works for this type of “beyond design basis” scenario in response to Fukushima.

Hopefully IAEA is already being proactive about this and working in a contingency plan, but I’m interested in hearing thoughts from our community here.

 

[RedSnake]

It ain't that I ain't worried, maybe not as much as bones206 though.
The fact that Russian TV has been pushing propaganda news that the Ukrainians are building a dirty plutonium bomb is not good.
It can of course serve many purposes.
Bad to good.
If they blow a nuclear plant they can claim it is the Ukrainians.
If they send a nuke they can claim it is the Ukrainians.
If they send a nuke they can claim they had to because the Ukrainians had a dirty bomb.
Or they just wont to motivate there unwilling reservs or military's to do a better job.
Or just trying to convince the home audience that this war is a good idea.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Flying a nuke will not go unanswered.
That's the reason both sides have them.


A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[RedSnake]

Well fact is that it might very well be unanswered.
Everyone discussing the possibility says there want be a retaliation from the NATO side since they will not want to escalate even more.
They would sacrifice Ukraina if need be.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

How could it escalate more after an intentional nuclear event.
There is a certain point at which madmen with nuclear capability cannot be permitted to reign havoc at will. OK, maybe nobody would respond if it was Astana. Kiev, I'd bet yes. If not immediately, in a few days, 'cause the Poles, if not someone else, I think would go in alone, because they see themselves as a high probability next. even if NATO, causing another N strike in Ukraine. Still not enough? How would it play out. Berlin and all points South and West are NATO (ex swiss), thats definitely risky. #3 wont be London or Paris, the force is with them. Baltic states? Possibly, but relatively low value... and NATO. Running out of low hanging fruit. Assuming 2 in Ukraine, tension super HV, and nobody still responds in kind, where will #3 go? What would be enough to trigger all out? Where is that red line? How far do you let Mr BatshitCrazy go?

https://www.devonlive.com/news/uk-world-news/awol-british-soldiers-may-have-6780022

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[bones206]

Update:

https://snriu.gov.ua/en/news/information-zaporizhzhia-npp-1200-10-march-2022

The Zaporizhzhia NPP and the town of Energodar have been under control of the Russian military troops for six days.

There are currently two units of the Zaporizhzhia NPP in the grid. Two 750 kV high-voltage lines remain disconnected due to damage: Zaporizhzhia and South Donbass lines.

Operational personnel monitor the condition of the power units and ensure their safe operation in accordance with the requirements of operating documents. There are shifts of both operational personnel and a part of daily shift staff.

On 9 March 2022, maintenance activities were resumed at Zaporizhzhia NPP Unit 1. However, as the NPP and adjacent territory are occupied by the Russian troops, it is not currently possible to deliver the necessary spare parts, equipment, and specialized personnel to the site to perform previously planned maintenance. It is planned to reduce the scope of maintenance at Unit 1.

Unit 6 was put into emergency maintenance after the oil system of the unit transformer was damaged in the shelling of the Zaporizhzhia NPP site by the Russian troops. The Unit 6 transformer is under maintenance. The maintenance work is complicated by the lack of highly specialized maintenance personnel and equipment at the Zaporizhzhya NPP.

We emphasize that incomplete and/or untimely implementation of maintenance measures for equipment important to safety can decrease its reliability and in turn lead to its failure and emergencies and accidents.

Walkdowns are continued to identify and dispose of ammunition that did not explode in the shelling and capture of the Zaporizhzhia NPP by Russian troops. We emphasize that any explosive items at NPP pose a direct threat to the safety not only of personnel but also of the NPP as a whole!

When the Zaporizhzhia NPP was attacked, the training center building was fired upon by artillery systems; as a result, a part of the training center rooms burned down and some of the rooms were damaged and unexploded shells were found in them. In this regard, the training and retraining of personnel since the capture of the Zaporizhzhia NPP by enemy troops have been stopped.

We emphasize that incompliance with personnel training and skill maintenance plans decreases the level of nuclear and radiation safety at the Zaporizhzhia NPP.

The automated radiation monitoring system for the NPP and the automated radiation monitoring systems for the control and observation areas operate in normal mode; no changes in the radiological situation at the NPP site or in the control and observation areas have been recorded.

The Zaporizhzhya NPP website does not work; real-time information on the radiological situation is not available to the public.

As rooms of the residential SNRIU Nuclear Safety Inspectorate at the Zaporizhzhia NPP were destroyed in the shelling on 4 March 2022 and personnel safety cannot be ensured, the SNRIU state inspectors work remotely. There is currently no independent regulatory oversight of nuclear and radiation safety directly at the Zaporizhzhia NPP site.

The town has electricity, water and heat supply; town government and utilities are working. At the same time, there is no possibility to deliver food to stores or drugs to pharmacies as such supplies are blocked by the occupier. Most internet providers are still down, and so are ATMs and POS terminals. There is shortage of fuel at gas stations. The evacuation of civilians, primarily children, women, elderlies and people with special needs was arranged from Energodar to Zaporizhzhya.

 

[MartinLe]

From page 115 of this doc - we talked about this upthread, but I don't think we mentioned the time estimates:

https://snriu.gov.ua/storage/app/sites/1/docs/Stress-tests/National%20Report%20of%20Ukraine.pdf[/URL]]The typical time values to achieve the following parameters were obtained in the result of
calculations performed:
− fuel cladding temperature will reach 48°С during 2 months in case of pump
failure, and it will be limiting value (stationary state at cooling pool walls and
environment temperature of 20°С),
− fuel cladding temperature can reach maximum 64°С in the cooling pool central
part under the worst environmental conditions when cooling pool walls heat up to
45°С, and environmental temperature is equal to 45°С,
− conditions of fuel cladding heating to higher temperatures during pump failure
and water presence in the cooling pool were not identified (100°С is not
reached);
− if there is no water in the cooling pool, fuel cladding temperature (natural air
cooling) will exceed 300°С in 57 days in the cooling pool central part;
− fuel cladding temperature will exceed 300°С in the entire cooling pool in
approximately 1-2 weeks depending on the environment temperature and cooing
pool wall temperature.

If this is correct, a grave accident should be unlikely?

 

[bones206]

I'm reasonably assured regarding the temperatures, from the various experts who have weighed in via media. Especially if they can manually top off the pool and prevent it from evaporating dry. I'm less assured about the radiolysis and hydrogen gas formation. The only expert I've heard weigh in about radiolysis was from Edwin Lyman of the Union of Concerned Scientists, and he sounded, well... concerned!

Based on what I have read about radiolysis and hydrogen gas formation, it may actually be a graver danger when less steam is present in the air, which I assume would be the case given the lower temperature of the fuel. If I understand correctly, radiolysis gas formation is a function of water atoms exposed to radioactivity, not temperature. It would be great if someone who really knows about this stuff could weigh in.

The report does seem to indicate that it was only their conservative calcs that indicated a possibility of hydrogen reaching its LEL in 10 days. They infer that their actual testing indicated a stabilization at a safe concentration, so the conservative calcs are invalidated??. It's not very clear and that paragraph in the report really lacks context, but I hope that is what they meant.

 

[bones206]

Interview with Petro Kotin, head of Energoatom.

https://www.epravda.com.ua/publications/2022/03/9/683642/

- What can the de-energization of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant lead to?

- Why do you need electricity at nuclear facilities? When we first loaded fresh fuel and started a nuclear reaction, it needed to be cooled all the time.

If this is not done, the heat that will accumulate there will melt the whole structure, go outside and get into the environment. In this way, radiation can enter people's bodies and irradiate them with radiation.

To cool, you need pumps that supply water or fans that remove heat from the structure.

The Chernobyl nuclear power plant has more than 20,000 spent fuel assemblies. This is all the fuel that was shipped from the Chernobyl power units after they were stopped. They need constant cooling.

Spent fuel is in the pool and is cooled by water pumps. After that, the warm water is cooled in a heat exchanger and fed back into the pool. This process must be continuous. If the pump loses power, the cooling process stops. Fuel cells will start to heat up.

A similar situation at ZNPP. There, the station is connected by four lines to the power system, and voltage is transmitted through them. Through them, the station itself receives electricity, thanks to which the reactors are cooled.

If these lines are damaged, the station will go into "full blackout" emergency mode when there is no external power supply.

In this case, include diesel generators. The probability of a nuclear accident depends on whether you have enough of these generators to restore external power.

So: out of four power lines at the ZNPP, two have already been damaged by the occupiers. If two more lines are damaged, it will be very close to disaster.

- How much time is there to prevent the worst-case scenario at Chernobyl?

- The work of the repository involves force majeure. Now everything will depend on the ambient temperature. It is quite cool now, in such conditions the cooling can work for about seven days without serious consequences.

After that, the water in the cooling system will gradually start to heat up and the temperature will rise. If not cooled at all, it will reach critical values ​​in seven days.

Now diesel generators provide stable cooling. It will all depend on whether they have the fuel to continue working and technical resources.

- Earlier there was information that generators can work two days.

- In total, there should be fuel for ten days. This is a general term. Three days - for nuclear power units, another seven days - in addition to eliminate power outages.

Such generators work on ships for six months, but here they have a more powerful mode of operation, and no one knows how long they will work. The long-term operation of the generators was not expected.

- How long is it before the potential radiation enters the air?

- It is impossible to predict. I just described the physics of the process. When it heats up, then it will.

At the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, the critical temperature can be reached in seven days if the generators are shut down. But diesel generators are now operating normally and the threat is being removed.

If the generators stop, you can start counting seven days. However, if you find a power source during this period, the situation will be under control.

- What do you need to do to return to standard power?

- It is necessary to agree with the occupiers on a "green corridor" for the Ukrenergo brigade, which can repair and restore the work of this line.

- You said about the release of radiation. Do you mean radiation vapors?

- We are not talking about an explosion. An explosion can occur if there is a direct hit by a projectile. If this does not happen, the emissions of radioactive gas into the air and into the water, which cools it all, will constantly increase.

- Why are the occupiers blocking the Chernobyl nuclear power plant?

- They do not understand what they are doing! What is Chernobyl or ZNPP? This is a well-fortified object in peacetime. That is, the station has a fence, security equipment around the perimeter, video surveillance and nuclear materials.

The occupiers use it as a military base. They went there, saw the whole perimeter from the inside and understood that no one would shoot there. At the same time, they can blackmail anyone who blows up nuclear material and scatters it all over Ukraine.

In addition, the infrastructure at these facilities is still very developed. That is, for the operation of power units there is equipment, appliances, dining room for a large number of staff, places for rest.

- You have appealed to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to close access to the airspace over its nuclear facilities through the United Nations. What was the reaction?

- We are constantly in contact with the leaders of these organizations, but the reaction so far is as follows: a statement of concern, perhaps, a visit to the facility of specialists of these organizations to monitor security on the ground. No effective steps are taken.

We continue to contact them, inform them, but so far only so.

- Is the capacity of other nuclear power plants enough to provide the country with electricity?

- Now we work with four nuclear power plants. There are eight power units in operation, including two at ZNPP.

At the Zaporizhzhya station, four blocks were stopped, three of them due to shelling. Two more are still working because the power system needs them. But if the situation remains threatening, we will bring ZNPP to "zero".

- What is happening at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant? In what condition is the staff and does it work?

- The Chernobyl nuclear power plant is staffed 14 days ago. People themselves no longer want to leave, because they understand that if they leave their jobs, the invaders can cause trouble there. Therefore, they control the process.

Yesterday or the day before yesterday, humanitarian aid was brought to them and Russian journalists were invited for propaganda. The staff refused her. That is, they keep the spirit of patriotism and wait for our Armed Forces to release them.

A change of staff has been established at ZNPP. The staff works, but in very bad psychological conditions.

At the station are about three hundred soldiers of the Russian Federation in masks. Directly on the ZNPP site, between the first unit and the special corps, there are about 50 units of heavy military equipment, where no one is allowed.

Management also works under the barrels of machines. All issues, even technical, they must agree with the military commander of the Russian Federation. He is now the "chief atomist" there, who says "yes" or "no".

This is a very threatening situation, especially for the psychological state of the staff. These personnel are on the control panels, they directly control the reactors. Employees need to be focused on work, not on people with machine guns nearby.

- Did you contact the Russian nuclear power plants to inform them about the inadmissibility of this situation?

- Russian nuclear scientists fully understand this situation.

The fact is that we are still under the Moscow center of the World Association of Organizations Operating Nuclear Power Plants. This organization performs functions more or less similar to those of the IAEA.

We used to have a lot of contacts with Russian nuclear power plants. They understand everything perfectly, but say nothing. We understand that now they cannot open their mouths in Russia to support us. This is the main question.

- What would you like to say to Ukrainians and nuclear power plant personnel?

- The staff working at the Chernobyl and ZNPPs in Energodar are all patriots of Ukraine, they all expect support from us. We must use the opportunities we have with you to convey words of support.

I ask journalists to do this because it is very difficult for people . They found themselves in a situation where, for some reason, our Armed Forces were unable to protect them. Three people were killed and two were injured at the Zaporizhzhya station. In Energodar they were buried with honors, with the flags of Ukraine. We are now transferring funds to their families.

People can't stand these "orcs". They are waiting and hoping that our army will come and knock out these invaders. And it must be done. When we protect nuclear facilities, then we will protect Ukraine's security for the future.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Reporting where I am is that Belarus has hooked it up Thier grid.

 

[bones206]

This may be some kind of propaganda effort by Russia/Belarus.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...l-plant-rejects-belarus-assistance/ar-AAUSylP

Chernobyl plant disconnected from power grid; Ukraine demands cease-fire for urgent repairs
Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, a staunch ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said Thursday he has instructed Belarusian specialists to ensure the power supply to the Chernobyl plant, the Belarusian BelTA news agency reported, according to Reuters.

Ukrenergo rejected the offer in an online post Thursday and said it did not need Belarusian assistance to repair the high-voltage lines.

“All the reports of the Russian and Belarusian media about the fixing/restoring of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant by Belarus are a provocation aimed at exacerbating the situation,” Ukrenergo said.

“We need a cease-fire and the admission of our repair teams, who have been waiting for approval to leave for repairs since yesterday. … Just stop the shelling and let our teams do their job!” the utility added.

 

[bones206]

Update from the Ukrainian regulator:

https://snriu.gov.ua/en/news/chornobyl-npp-facilities-current-situation-10-march-2022-1500

Also, according to the design, if the ventilation system becomes inoperable and compensatory measures cannot be taken, explosive concentrations of hydrogen may be generated through radiolysis.

I wonder if they could somehow purge the air in the spent fuel building with nitrogen, if all else fails. I believe that’s what TEPCO tried to do at Fukushima.

Of course that would require cooperation by the Russian occupiers, who are currently preventing them from fixing the power lines and who caused the damage in the first place.

 

[1503-44]

The news topic of the day is chemical weapons. Need I say more.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I am watching the wind charts closely on that front also.

 

[RedSnake]

Well there have been sightings in Belarus with trucks with flammable signs going eastwards towards Russia first one 3-4 days ago.

https://twitter.com/MotolkoHelp/status/1501529124300627971

https://twitter.com/motolkohelp/status/1501945090213748739

Can of course be anything in them, only the Belarus and Russians know.


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Check the color of the next fireball.

Meanwhile there is a drone video and comments at reddit ... as a Z.ru tank column gets torched.
$1M (and a permanent residence permit?) for any .ru pilot landing an .ru aircraft.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianC...ainian_artillery_takes_out_a_russian_armored/

Then scroll to
"Putin ‘sacks eight generals’ in anger at slow progress in Ukraine invasion"

Rustamova: on .ru politicians ‘They’re carefully enunciating the word clusterf**k.

Last night BBC: former NATO commander says coming week is critical for .ru. Supplies running out. Troops probably running out next. Inadequate forces for the size of .ua. Totally mismanaged logistics...the most important aspect of war. Basically take Kiev by Sunday +/-, or a 1-way ticket to Siberia.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The Ukrainians are not missing

And as most of their weapons are soviet era they are putting some incredible shots down the range.

Think that was a HEAT round going into armour and the magazine going inside of it.

 

[RedSnake]

1503-44 I did answered in the "interesting things" thread..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[AutisticBez]

Look to be honest the entire "nuclear terror" journalism was false. The conflict occurred in a neighbouring building. Though it is said by the Russians that 200 Ukrainian troops surrendered at the NPP with orders to battle to the last man. A huge weapons cache inside the NPP was found and documented. I think the threat is overstated.

 

[RedSnake]

Hmm are you saying that you believe Russian proganda?

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Fog of war. In any case, the threat still exists and that should probably not be underestimated. They're also some pretty stressed out guys trying to keep things in order. That in itself is cause for concern. I was barricaded inside a pump station for two weeks during "civil unrest". Several small rounds hit within the complex. A helicopter pilot delivering supplies was shot in the leg. They tried to blow up the diesel tanks. It was not easy to keep your eyes on the ball. That was just a simple pump station. IMO the threat is indeed being underestimated.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.