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Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1] 20

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The latest from the NY Times:

Link

Looks like the pilots fought the MCAS until the end.
 
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NY Times said:
Information provided to American Airlines from Boeing since the crash, Captain Tajer said, “specifically says that pulling back on the control column in the Max will not stop the runaway if M.C.A.S. is triggered. That is an important difference to know.”
Click to expand...

That sinking feeling...

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF
 
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Does anyone remember the joke from the early days of automation?
As an aircraft is taking off an announcement is made over the PA system;
"This aircraft is equipped with the latest, most advanced auto-pilot.
The plane is now being flown automatically.
You are perfectly safe.
Nothing can go wrong..can go wrong..can go wrong..can go wrong..can go wrong..can go wrong..can go wrong.."

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
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There is a fair bit of information and discussion out there if you go searching. A few pilot forums too but they aren't readily open to public viewing.
Just one source:

This is probably one on the better media articles:

LionAir-BlackBox-WEB-1560x1040.jpg


SEATTLETIMES said:
The data points to three factors that seem to have contributed to the disaster:

A potential design flaw in Boeing’s new anti-stall addition to the MAX’s flight-control system and a lack of communication to airlines about the system.
The baffling failure of the Lion Air pilots to recognize what was happening and execute a standard procedure to shut off the faulty system.
And a Lion Air maintenance shortfall that allowed the plane to fly repeatedly without fixing the key sensor that was feeding false information to the flight computer on previous flights.
Click to expand...
 
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As with all aviation accidents, there will be a string of seemingly unrelated causes that contributed to this crash, such as the flight system automation, training, and probable faulty hardware, but it seems now that the predominant cause will be attributed to allowing this airplane to fly in the first place. I read somewhere that troubles with the AOA sensors had been reported for 5 days preceding the crash. I can't find the source now and that may not be true. Regardless, it seems that the previous flight was only able to avoid disaster through some set of knowledge and skill that the pilots of the accident flight lacked. I'm sure that the real legacy of this will be settling lawsuits for years to come.

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.
 
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A switch to turn off a malfunctioning system, that repeatedly turns itself back on may not be the best idea.
It may be a great novelty, but not the way to fly an airplane.
Link
I can imagine the pilots confusion turning to frustration and then to panic as the yoke switch repeatedly turned itself back on.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
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Plenty of fault to go around but why didn't the pilots return to the airport and land the thing? The reports say it was malfunctioning from the moment they took off. Seems like a culture to just keep flying no mater what is wrong. Remind me to never fly Lion Air.

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
 
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Its easier to say than to actually do... And when you have control issues you keep the wings level because the stall speed goes up in a bank and also you loose climb performance.

This system is only used during manual flight, it gets turned off when the auto pilot is engaged.

And a lot of pilots wouldn't step foot on quiet a few carriers.... including some carriers you would be surprised at that are western and national carriers.
 
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Taking Frontier in a few weeks to visit the in-laws. I'd say wish me luck but don't worry; I'll make sure to knock on the pilots door to wake them up when it's time to land. [bigglasses]

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
 
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Don't go near the door please, its classed as an attempt to enter the cockpit. And that's shite loads of paperwork.
 
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We miss it as well, nothing better than having people on the jumpseat for a sector. Gives us someone different to talk to. And the whole system for going for a pee is a complete pain.

We can take certain individuals on the jumpseat with a relatively easy system (one phone call ) to get approval. And the boss is all in favour of letting known suitably aged kids in the cockpit if they want.
 
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waross said:
A switch to turn off a malfunctioning system, that repeatedly turns itself back on may not be the best idea.
Click to expand...

That is an interesting problem. How do you design a system that fills in the blanks of human perception, can be disabled in case of malfunction, but cannot be too easily disabled or ignored in case the pilots are mistaken in their belief that the system is malfunctioning, etc. It seems like there was a procedure for disabling the system but it required one extra step that the pilots were not aware of.

I'm probably mixing up my incidents but I think it was the Air France flight out of Rio where sensors were icing up in dark clouds, pilot was pushing nose down to avoid stall and pick up airspeed while co-pilot was secretly holding the stick back to get above weather and flew a perfectly good aircraft into the Atlantic because they did not have confidence/agreement in their airspeed and stall indicators.

 
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dgallup said:
Plenty of fault to go around but why didn't the pilots return to the airport and land the thing?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how going nose down into the tarmac would be preferable to nosing down into the water.
 
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waross; I believe the ultimate solution was not a 'cancel' switch but the circuit breaker. The system was also disabled by setting any flaps and they actually guessed that using it as a method a few times but for some reason eventually gave up on that avenue, which would've gotten them back on the ground. (That's on - not in.)

Keith Cress
kcress -
 
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stevengal said:
I'm not sure how going nose down into the tarmac would be preferable to nosing down into the water.
Click to expand...
They flew it for 12 minutes before the crash, most of the time going up or maintaining altitude. If I were fighting a piece of out of control equipment, I would want to get it to some safe position and shut down, not just keep on fighting it forever.

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
 
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I am sure they did as well, better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than in the air wishing you weren't.

There should be no requirement in this day and age for a pilot to have to hunt for a Cb to to kill a system.


I have a panel with 25 by 30 grid on it of CB next to my seat. And the FO's have the same.


The should stop any more interations of the 737 using the old certification grandfather rights which is based on a 1960's design.

New certification to modern standards not just fundging things so they don't have to comply with modern standards or do a full certification testing program.
 
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