Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 44

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12


SF Charlie
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[Demented]

Poor wording on my part. Emergency generator is what I meant.

Either way, there's nothing to see with 202 or that reflection.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Debirlfan]

I can't prove anyone was in there, but I hope the authorities will have checked into it...a simple call to the owner is all it would take.

Personally, I doubt if anyone was in there and I think there are several simple explanations for the apparent light, but....

IF someone was in there doing unapproved work, then:
1. They got out before the collapse (no extra bodies found.)
2. Homeowners would be unlikely to admit it (who's going to admit they're responsible for the collapse?)

 

[sgw1009]

If a light had been on in 202, the drapes would be evenly lit, unless the lamp was immediately behind the drapes, which does not appear to be the case. However, the "light" is bright in the the center, and dims as the distance from the center increases, which leads me to believe that we are seeing a reflection, and not a light inside of 202.

 

[AutisticBez]

Honestly, I would hate living in an apartment just above a car driveway. I might even put extreme window tinting in or reflect car head lights.

 

[MOJOJOHN]

Did anyone ever find grade marks on photos of the column steel?

I can’t find any indication of 60 grade steel as specified in the drawings.

Sorry if I missed it.

Mojojohn

 

[Nukeman948]

Did anyone ever find grade marks on photos of the column steel?

That's a mighty fine question you have there. Mighty fine indeed. Thanks for steering us back on track.

Mr. Kilsheimer's pics are probably the best we have.
See here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0gDmnl4AWeyT80E6rrTiviXKwYSLy4u

I don't know enough about the markings to be certain but there may be a few issues here.

Image 307, looks like o 11 n or n 11 o and no other marks that are legible.

Image 292 confirms 307.

Image 280 is... Ohh... Hmmmm...Looks like someone used a grinder to delete some of the information here. You can check out the Grinder website if you're into that.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[Demented]

New billet #11 grade 40 or 50 mild steel, most likely grade 40.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[SwinnyGG]

That's O - 11 - N.

This would indicate Type N, Size #11, manufactured by Marion Steel in Marion, OH. Note that Marion steel is part of Nucor now, but was not in 1981.

Type N is an obsolete standard. Previous versions of ASTM A 615 captured two types of billet steel for use in the manufacturing of concrete reinforcement. Type S was a set of more stringent supplementary requirements, type N was the 'minimum'. At some point, Type S was rolled into the main spec, and the supplementary requirements were struck from the standard. Type N went away as a designation. I don't know exactly when this happened but I believe it was some time in the 80s.

 

[Demented]

1984.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[MOJOJOHN]

My concern is that the time of instruction Champlain Towers South both 40 grade and 60 grade steel was available and commonly used.

Threshold inspection did not exist yet and the contractor sometimes bought 40 grade steel because it was cheaper.

Not saying it happened here , I would just like to see a grade mark indicating 60 grade steel on a column bar so that potential problem could be eliminated.

Regards,

Mojojohn

 

[Demented]

The pictures from Kilsheimer are not the best, but still good enough to kinda make out N 11 0 on a few more bars. There's more grinding marks I've seen but nothing clear enough to say it's numbers ground off. There does appear to be a lot of single grade lines extending 5 spaces beyond the blurry letters/numbers. Even that ground off section above.

So, grade 400?

Also looking down the N columns for example, I'm still seeing the #11 bars. Shouldn't these be #7's?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Nukeman948]

I would just like to see a grade mark indicating 60 grade steel on a column bar so that potential problem could be eliminated.

The only way to totally eliminate that possibility is to examine every single piece of rebar. What we have seen doesn't look good.
Unless we have an NIST double agent lurking on this site that is willing to divulge their knowledge upon us we will have to wait for the official release of info and hope it gives the details we are looking for.

I've worked for some pretty shady contractors who had a lot of leftover materials from previous jobs laying around their yard. They send it out and ask the crew if they can mix it in with the correct stuff so it might not get seen by the inspector. Inspector looks real close at the first two columns and gives a quick glance at the rest if he has time. Once he makes it a pattern of what he looks at it's pretty easy for some guys to figure out where they could hide stuff and play dumb if he found it. (I usually didn't have to play dumb, but I did throw a lot of that leftover junk in the dumpster) No idea what could have happened in Florida around 1980.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[MaudSTL]

If this proposal in the Sun Sentinel goes through, there’s going to be a lot of work for structural engineers in Florida.

“Florida should immediately require every condominium association and board, both those currently in existence and any formed in the future, and including developer-controlled condominium associations and boards, to conduct a structural [top to below ground] engineering review combined with an asset reserve study prepared by a licensed, insured and bonded professional qualified and experienced in such matters.”

After the studies, they next propose state funding to soften the blow to the values of the condos during the proposed transition period.

A plan for post-Surfside condo law reform | Opinion

 

[spsalso]

There's a plan!

Wasn't Breiterman just such a guy?



spsalso


PS: I'm glad they pointed out that it should actually encompass the entire building. There are those who might not think of that.

 

[AusG]

And a lot of work for lawyers when the reviews find unsatisfactory conditions and lots of money required to reinstate.

 

[SFCharlie]

Geez!? I don't know why anybody would be cynical of Florida politics and developers and the legal profession?

SF Charlie
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[Phil1934]

FBPE newsletter
Rule 61G15-19.001(6) and (6)(a), Florida Administrative Code, Grounds for Disciplinary Procedures, says:

(6) A professional engineer shall not commit misconduct in the practice of engineering. Misconduct in the practice of engineering as set forth in Section 471.033(1)(g), Florida Statutes, shall include, but not be limited to:

Expressing an opinion publicly on an engineering subject without being informed as to the facts relating thereto and being competent to form a sound opinion thereupon.

Unfortunately, there are sometimes tragedies that occur and make local, national, and even international news, such as the collapse of the Florida International University pedestrian bridge in 2018 or the collapse of the Champlain Towers in Surfside this year.
In the wake of these events, you may have seen people posting things on social media about these tragedies, giving what seems to be a technical-sounding engineering opinion for the cause of these structural collapses. You may have even participated in the discussion and gone back and forth about the hows and whys. All the while, you say something about being an engineer or just forget that your profile clearly identifies you as a Professional Engineer.

If the opinion you made is engineering-related and is made without being informed of the facts, or if you do not have the expertise in this subject to make a sound opinion, you have committed misconduct in the practice of engineering by Florida law and are subject to discipline.

The Board takes this very seriously and has previously and recently disciplined engineers for committing misconduct in this manner.

 

[Demented]

The board can sit on a fat one.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[spsalso]

If, on the other hand, you are simply incompetent or sleazy, the Board will certainly be understanding of your plight and wish you well.



spsalso

 

[Reverse_Bias]

Here's the NYT article from 9/22. Just basically a list of contributing factors.

Edit: Here's the link. Double click the image in the tweet for a more readable quality. I think this graphic is just the paper version of the September 1st article.

https://twitter.com/singhvianjali/status/1440724076117385231