Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part V 6

[dik]

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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Please stop blaming everything on "things heating up". The Mississippi water issues are directly the result of mismanagement. It was not a record level flood event and in the previous years they had similar failures that were not addressed. Probably, the only connection to AGW in this specific event is that public service commission squandered their money on a solar farm instead of maintaining their water infrastructure.

https://www.entergynewsroom.com/new...sion-gives-green-light-1-000-acre-solar-farm/

Politicians want to support projects that get national attention so they neglect the life critical infrastructure that already exists. Instead of blaming the Jackson failure on AGW it should be blamed the climate change movement.

 

[dik]

That too, Tug... and there's a lot more of that coming down the road, I suspect.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Then stop being part of the problem!

 

[SwinnyGG]

I don't understand the logic. CO2 has an insulating effect. We insulate our homes to make their inside weather more consistent and predictable. Why would CO2 insulation be different on Earth?

This is from the last thread but it cannot go unaddressed..

Comparing greenhouse gasses to 'insulation' is not an accurate analogy to explain their effect.

If you are determined to use a house as an analogy - consider the effect of two houses of different sizes, both of which have the same construction and an HVAC system of the same rating. The bigger house is going to be hotter in the summer and colder in the winter- because it has more surface area, it loses (or in the summer, gains) more energy..

Now take those two houses and put them on the dark side of the moon, where they are always exposed to the exact same temperature. IF the heat energy being input into both houses is exactly the same, the equilibrium temperature of the larger house will be colder than the small house - because the energy balance through any given square meter of the surface area of the house has a lower heating value. The physics here are pretty simple, it's just an energy balance.

The earth has an energy balance too - our planet receives massive amounts of radiation of many types from the sun. Some of that is absorbed, some of that is reflected, some of that is lost via the earth radiating back out into space.

When you add a bunch of additional greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere, you are changing the percentage of input energy which is absorbed or radiated back out. The earth, relative to space, is a steady state system. It's always receiving (generally) the same amount of input energy, and the external temperature (space) is always the same.

 

[TugboatEng]

I get it. But where is the heat balance equation? None of the things anybody says really adds up. They're all hyper focused on a small detail just as my house insulation analogy was. There are a lot of crazy ideas based on too little information floating around. It's time to hit the brakes and evaluate the quality of those ideas. Heck, I used knowledge from my first year physics class to shoot down the gravity battery and wave buoy. We can do better than just posting sensationalized news articles here.

 

[GregLocock]

The disappearing Arctic lakes article included a gem of information. The Arctic is warming at 4 times the rate of the rest of the planet. So if, as we suspect, the put your hand out the window test is correct then that explains a lot, insignificant changes in temperatures over the vast proportion of the earth's surface where people live are unlikely to cause much difference in local climate.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[SwinnyGG]

But where is the heat balance equation?

https://web.archive.org/web/2021060...lanetary-energy-balance-temperature-calculate

This part of the conversation is settled physics that we've known about for a long time - and it 'adds up' because the earth isn't a ball of ice at -400C.

Maybe we should hold off on taking drastic actions until we better understand the problem ?

This line of thought is like having an infection and telling yourself you should wait to go to the hospital until you figure out whether or not it's going to give you gangrene.

 

[SuperSalad]

This line of thought is like having an infection and telling yourself you should wait to go to the hospital until you figure out whether or not it's going to give you gangrene.

But the flip side is taking a bone saw to the arm when we aren't sure which of the 5 fingers actually needs the chop.

- Andrew

 

[dik]

Climate change affects countries with a relatively small footprint...

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/30/asia/pakistan-climate-crisis-floods-justice-intl/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/01/asia/pakistan-flooding-glacier-outbursts-climate-intl/index.html

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Possible new technology...

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/contra-rotating-turbine-double-energy-worlds-largest

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Climate change effect on plants...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/31/leaves-autumn-extreme-heat-trees-crops-nature

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SwinnyGG]

But the flip side is taking a bone saw to the arm when we aren't sure which of the 5 fingers actually needs the chop.

Yeah... no.

The lifespan of our fossil fuel based energy economy is finite, and I don't think any one would ever make the argument that the products of fossil fuels in the atmosphere are, in any way, good. There is literally no downside to developing alternate energy technologies and cycles, UNLESS you are financially tied to hydrocarbons in some way.

 

[SuperSalad]

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said, but I agree with everything you said following "no."

- Andrew

 

[dik]

Super... the problem is that no one knows the extent of climate change effects... as I noted, this could be a blip on the geologic time scale or it could be something a lot worse. When you have no idea of the outcome, it's difficult to make the 'correct' decision. With the potential outcome, something a little more proactive might be in order. The changes can be grave, and really 'ugly'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SuperSalad]

Proactive? Absolutely. The problem I often see is proactive ideas promoted with concerning possibilities and a "We'll figure that out later" attitude toward the problems. That is basically what has gotten us into the current energy situation and we don't seem to be learning that lesson.

I think it is clear that I don't think the status quo is sustainable, but its more nuanced than fossil fuels = bad and renewable energy = good. So setting ambiguous net-zero goals with no real plan for the issues that go along with that other than "we'll figure it out" aren't going to give us what we need unless we manage to defy the history we keep repeating.

- Andrew

 

[dik]

Thanks, Super...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Tmoose]

Yesterday Evon Musk moved up several notches in my estimation, asking for some moderation and even restraint in championing and exterminating the various energy sources.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/29/media-goes-nuts-elon-musk-calling-more-oil-and-gas-full-quote/

Although the heated responses to his comments will likely add significantly and directly to Global warming.
I foresee a widespread boycott of TESLAs on the morrow.

Seriously I just hope an extremist assassination attempt will not be provoked from groups like the Russkies or enviro____ or ????

 

[dik]

I posted a notice of this earlier; it may be that this is moving towards fruition... The US might consider something like this... mind you, they seem to have trouble with 100 mph trains...

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/fluxjet-transpod-canada-hyperloop/index.html

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Sorry guy... Musk doesn't even have the foresight to realise that working from home may be a big thing in the future, when you may not be able to commute to work... fossil comes to mind and not fossil fuel.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

How are trains even considered a viable solution? One problem shuts the entire line down. Are we going to have to shut down entire cities in the future because a component breaks on a train and the workers can't make it to their jobs? We've seen the trickle down effects of COVID shutdowns. I'd hate to have to introduce high speed rail shutdowns.