Ukraine Nuclear Power Plants 9

[bones206]

Nuclear power plants are not designed to operate in war zones. What can be done to proactively shore up the safety systems of these plants in Ukraine?

Assuming Russia permitted the international community to bring equipment on-site uncontested, is there anything that could be used in a pinch to augment emergency power systems etc? When I got out of the nuclear industry in 2016, there were a lot of projects in the works for this type of “beyond design basis” scenario in response to Fukushima.

Hopefully IAEA is already being proactive about this and working in a contingency plan, but I’m interested in hearing thoughts from our community here.

 

[bones206]

They are more than likely trying to figure out a way of permanently putting it out of action without any energy release and leaving the cost of decommissioning to Ukraine to deal with. But they know fine that the sanctions won't be lifted until they do clear up their mess.

I'm worried about this as well. It's been reported that some Rosatom staff have been on site for a few days now. Originally I thought, "good, Russia brought in the adults in to keep the soldiers from accidentally doing something really bad". Now I'm thinking "oh no, Russia brought in the adults in to HELP the soldiers do something really bad".

Russia appears to be in the phase of the war where military defeat is imminent, so they are making sure they trash Ukraine on the way out. Destroying as much critical infrastructure and manufacturing capacity as possible. Wouldn't surprise me if sabotaging the nuclear plants was on the agenda.

 

[1503-44]

It does seem everything is in their little "war criminal" play book.

Russians have figured out a way to get into the US. They make a token protest in the Moscow streets and let the cops pick them up, then they take a flight to Mexico and show up in Tiajauna asking for political asylum. AlJeezera says they vastly outnumber the few Ukrainians refugees that took the same route.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

 

[RedSnake]

It's been reported that some Rosatom staff have been on site for a few days now.

I haven't heard anything about any staff of Rosatom on site?

The Ukrainians fixed the damaged powerlines which is outside the Chernobyl facility somewhere, but the Russians destroyed it by mistake or on purpose again.

Russians have figured out a way to get into the US.

I don't blame them.
They are getting out not only to the States, who want's to live in a land without future.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

In today’s update, the [Ukrainian] regulator said it had been informed by personnel at the site that at least 11 representatives of the Russian state company Rosatom were also present there, without interfering with the operation of the nuclear facilities.

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pre...tor-general-statement-on-situation-in-ukraine

edit: to be clear this is the Zaporizhzhya NPP site.

 

[RedSnake]

Thanks bones for the link..

Update 20 March 13

Ukraine has previously informed the IAEA that regular staff have continued to operate the Zaporizhzhya NPP and carry out their day-to-day work, but that its management is under the control of the commander of the Russian forces there. In today’s update, the regulator said it had been informed by personnel at the site that at least 11 representatives of the Russian state company Rosatom were also present there, without interfering with the operation of the nuclear facilities.

Update 21 March 14

The IAEA is aware of reports that Russian forces have carried out munition explosions at the site of the Zaporizhzhya NPP,

Update 22 March 15
In addition, the regulator said for the first time today that information it received regarding Chornobyl was “controlled by the Russian military forces” and therefore it could not “always provide detailed answers to all” of the IAEA’s questions. This was also the case regarding the Zaporizhzhya NPP, controlled by Russian forces since 4 March.

The regulatory authority said staff at the Zaporizhzhya NPP confirmed reports that the Russian military had detonated unexploded munitions left on the site following events on 4 March.
The staff was not informed beforehand, it added.
The regulator has in recent days told the IAEA about ongoing work to detect and dispose of unexploded munitions found at the damaged training centre and elsewhere at the NPP.

If it is "true" that Rosatom is in place Zaporizhzhya NPP they either have no say in what is happening or they are not there if they would allow that ammunition is blown up on the plant grounds.
I really want to believe that the Rosatom people are first engineers and second "Russians".

“controlled by the Russian military forces” and therefore it could not “always provide detailed answers to all”

That is worrying.



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Getting rid of unexploded munitions in a controlled manner is normal practice on a site.

It's safer than leaving them sitting.

If you leave them uncontrolled and one gets trigged then it can form a chain setting them all off.

With artillery shells you put a point charge on them which cuts a hole through the casing which then triggers the bang but because the casing is now not a pressure vessel it just breaks instead of turning to shrapnel. Plus you put sand bags over it.

 

[RedSnake]

Getting rid of unexploded munitions in a controlled manner is normal practice on a site.

It's safer than leaving them sitting.

I get that part of it, but blowing it upp inside the NNP instead of taking it elsewhere I don't agree with..

Not sure in what maner they did blow the stuff up inside the NPP grounds, the operators where not informed.
Have a hard time seeing that something like that would have been allowed during normal circumstances.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

And a really stupid question, why is it spelled/called munition, I have never heard anything else then ammunition.
To me munition sounds really strange.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

Not sure I believe they actually blew up munitions. Why would you destroy munitions under your control in the midst of a war? Just doesn't ring true to me. It could be a cover story for some kind of sabotage operation. Either way, it's extremely disturbing.

 

[RedSnake]

I can see a reason for it, if you ones shoot the ammunition and it hasn't exploded it isn't OK for same reason and the shell can have been damaged and disformed so trying to use it again can end up with blowing the shooter up..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its normally dud artillery shells and mortars. The British stock there was always one or two in a day of 200 rounds that didn't go off. Never had much to do with grenades but they had a large failure rate as well. I was told its the arming spin up which which usually was the reason for the failure.

Moving is not safe unless you screw the fuse off the front.

I would guess eastern block would have a similar dud rate or more if the rate of RPG's failing to detonate in Afghanistan is anything to go by.

These are fired failed to explode munitions I am on about. You wouldn't touch them. Just put a point drilling charge over them and put sand bags round then fire the cutting charge. The drilling charge is some plastic explosive with a copper disk at the bottom which then turns to plasma and melts its way through the casing. You put it on a tripod of wire with about 1 cm off the item.

 

[bones206]

Ok yes that does make sense.

 

[AutisticBez]

I just don't understand why people buy into this nuclear threat propaganda. Like I pretty much follow both sides. RT might be propaganda, but it's very nuanced and goes to exceptional effort to explain itself and the motivations behind the actions. Could it be made up? Sure. Could there be lies? Yep.

Western propaganda pretty much lacks any nuance, it's simply about creating fear and paranoia, painting the Russians as evil as possibly. It ignores the 8 year civil war in the Donbas, which is made up and never happened. You bring it up and your a Putin apologist.

Are we really to believe that the Russians took the NPP's to destroy them and cause nuclear radiation? I have no idea how that could ever work. For example, the Russians ran power from Belarus to hook up with Chernobyl after the power from the south was destroyed. No problem.

Why does every motivation have to be evil? It's really hard for Russia to put out effective propaganda whilst being this evil. And I simply don't trust our media enough to not be playing games here. They've been doing it for two years now under COVID.

In times of war, the media can't be trusted unless they are being sceptical. They don't say anything negative about Ukraine and sat nothing positive about Russia. Seems to be clear biased reporting. Fairly obvious to me. Plus cancel culture.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I'd love to hear what positive things about Russia and Putin you think they should be saying but aren't

 

[RedSnake]

Like I pretty much follow both sides. RT might be propaganda, but it's very nuanced and goes to exceptional effort to explain itself and the motivations behind the actions.

Not sure what you mean by RT?
Propaganda isn't nuanced and the motivations behind the actions is just propaganda.

Western propaganda pretty much lacks any nuance, it's simply about creating fear and paranoia, painting the Russians as evil as possibly. It ignores the 8 year civil war in the Donbas, which is made up and never happened. You bring it up and your a Putin apologist.

No one have denied that there is a civil war supported by Putin in Donbas and Crimea and that it is occupied by pro-Russians , but they are both a part of Ukraina and have never been accepted as a part of Russia more then by Russia and Putin.

For example, the Russians ran power from Belarus to hook up with Chernobyl after the power from the south was destroyed. No problem.

Russia did not ran power from Belarus to hook up with Chernobyl, that is propaganda.
The repar work on the lines where made by Ukrainians.

Why does every motivation have to be evil? It's really hard for Russia to put out effective propaganda whilst being this evil.

Russia isn't evil but Putin is a dictator and he is getting paranoid which always happens with dictators which makes him dangerous.
And Russia have had more then hundred years of practicing there propaganda machine, without it there wouldn't be a Putin or maybe not even a communistic Russia.

And I simply don't trust our media enough to not be playing games here.

Well since I live in a country with Public media that are not allowed report things that ain't fact and viewed from both sides I don't have that problem..

They don't say anything negative about Ukraine and sat nothing positive about Russia.

There isn't anything positiv to say about a dictator in a country that invades a sovereign state without provokation and bombs school, daycare centers, hospitals, and civil houses not keeping there cease-fire and allowing people to evacuate.
It is war crime, after war crime, just because of one mans ego.


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[JohnRBaker]

I believe that 'RT' refers to 'Russia TV', which you can watch on some cable systems.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[RedSnake]

It was my guess, but I wasn't sure.
I have seen it when I have been on vacation.
It is really cleverly disguised whit American and English programleders pushing Russian propaganda.
97% truth and 3% lies in the right places pushing things that will make Russia look great and everything that can be perceived as positiv by Russians as negativ.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[bones206]

I just don't understand why people buy into this nuclear threat propaganda.

I have a background in nuclear power plants, so I'm more informed than the average person -- and I have barely slept in 3 weeks. It's a legitimate threat and not propaganda. We can get specific and technical if you would like to understand it better, but from my perspective, the nuclear plants are in a vulnerable state and we should all be concerned how things play out.

I do think that Russia is most likely planning to use the plants as bargaining chips, rather than sabotaging them to cause an outright disaster. But given the monstrously cynical crimes against humanity they've committed so far, I think they are quite capable of doing anything.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is actually quite a bit of negative stuff about Ukraine floating around especially about the right wing neo Nazi part of society there. Which is present in a few ex soviet society's and Germany as well. UK has it in small amounts.

Most of the high quality drone kill TV are done by a group who have swastika's on there emblem. And they are a nasty bunch who have committed war crimes in Donbas.

The Ukrainian Nuclear power stuff has huge secondary and tertiary factors circling around it dating back 40 years. With also future factors although I can't see Ukraine going back to syncing with the Russian grid. This then gives problems in Crimea if its to stay in Russian control. Same up in the Baltics with Kaliningrad when they do the same.

here is an example

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/inside-azov-neo-nazi-brigade-101700627.html

 

[RedSnake]

The Azov battalion is really right extreme and as you say nasty, at least they where, some seem to be pagens too.

I think they are the ones fighting in Mariupol and helped people evacuate from there since the Russians didn't keep there cease-fire.
There has been little "news" about them since they where blocked from Facebook 2019 but now they allowed it again when the Russians invaded Ua.

I think the Ukrainians doesn't care much who defends them at this stages, it is fighting fire with fire.
The Azov battalion is a part of the national guard with around 300 hundred militaries so in a population of 44 million it's a drop in the sea.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein